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Post by Chris St'Aubyn on Jul 27, 2016 9:12:43 GMT
We all know that the converter in some interfaces are better than others but by what measurement. How much more improved are the DACs of our interfaces vs the ones on the motherboards of our computers, cars, cellphones? Are we chasing a level of perfection not truely needed with little differential gains? What do you guys think?
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Post by Hexspa on Jul 27, 2016 20:03:38 GMT
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Post by Chris St'Aubyn on Jul 28, 2016 8:48:30 GMT
Thank you. I'm aware of the article. It's just that the price of interfaces change dramatically. Something has to be adding to the value of them. Is it the latency improvements? Is it the drivers? Is it the level of noise in the signal? If I'm a guy working strictly ITB why is there so much emphasis on my DAC and which interface I choose (hypothetically speaking)?
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Post by Chris St'Aubyn on Jul 28, 2016 8:59:37 GMT
If there are improvements outside of the DAC how much of an improvement are we even talking? I mean lets say that a $700 RME interface gets a latency of 10ms with a buffer of 32. Is it safe to say that is worth the money if m audio interface gets a latency of 13 at the same buffer rate but it only cost $100?
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Post by rock on Jul 28, 2016 13:42:49 GMT
Unless you're doing realtime monitoring thru the computer, I don't think latency is a sonic quality issue. Seems to me, if your question is what is the sonic quality of the recorded signal, how long it took to get there should not matter. I think it's apple and oranges.
I don't know the answer to the quality question but I do have an opinion that cheap interfaces today (I have one) compete favorably with expensive Big Time Studio gear. A friend with expensive gear of his own was dubious but could not find fault with my cheap interface.
Cheers, Rock
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Post by Hexspa on Jul 29, 2016 19:20:13 GMT
Depends on which interfaces you mean specifically. I don't recall them changing price significantly without some return in value.
A lot of people like the Focusrite 2i4. $199 - not bad, basic 2i/4o incl headphone and MIDI. The PRO 14 gives more I/O, maybe different/more expensive converters, construction and software for $50-100 more. This follows to their PRO 40 at $500.
My MOTU Ultralite Mk3 FW was about $500 when I got it. It has some onboard DSP for near-zero-latency monitoring but the software mixer is not fun, intuitive or easy to use.
For $700 you can get a 2x6 Twin with some DSP and arguably better aesthetics and usability plus access to a renown albeit expensive plugin library. $900 UAD bumps you up to more DSP. Both these options are giving you virtually no latency.
At around $2500-$3000 you're hitting a different level with things like the Apogee Symphony and the Apollo 16. Some people say they sound better. Maybe they're more reliable. My guess is that combining the DSP with the fully-featured I/O plus continual development on the software side, better components, construction and maybe a dash of prestige gives you that sum.
Some people like Prism and they range from about $1750-$4k-$10k but some people consider this the best money can buy / state-of-the-art.
Personally, I failed Ethan's converter challenge so I've neglected to upgrade my interface. I do have problems with it but, should I ever buy up, I've thus had to concede it'll be for features and not sound quality. Then again I DID do that test with my current interface so maybe I should try again with something more expensive.
Though these are interfaces and not DACs only. I'm not sure how far you wanted to expand your definition.
But there you go.
-m
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Post by Ethan Winer on Jul 29, 2016 21:06:28 GMT
It's just that the price of interfaces change dramatically. Something has to be adding to the value of them. Is it the latency improvements? Is it the drivers? Is it the level of noise in the signal? If I'm a guy working strictly ITB why is there so much emphasis on my DAC and which interface I choose (hypothetically speaking)? As with all products, price often has surprisingly little to do with quality. I am serious. The filet mignon steaks I get at Costco are much better quality than what they sell for twice the price at a local "meat specialty" store half a mile away. Sticking with audio, this $300 Crown power amplifier: www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XLS1002is vastly better than this piece of crap sold to the hi-fi market (without even basic fidelity specs) for $7,000 : www.musicdirect.com/p-4537-bat-vk-55se-tube-power-amp.aspxAs rock explained, latency doesn't affect fidelity. It can be important, but that's more a function of the driver than the hardware. If you're serious about understanding what affects fidelity, this video of my AES presentation explains in great detail: AES Damn LiesThis video explains even more: AES Audio MythsMy book The Audio Expert explains even more than that, though it's not free like my YouTube videos. --Ethan
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Post by Hexspa on Jul 29, 2016 23:52:27 GMT
Well, Ethan's made a good point: price is not always related to quality. It can be related to features, production costs, market value and maybe other variables. In the case of those two amplifiers, I've heard class A tube amps are the most expensive to build. Plus that company might not have the scale of Crown to reduce costs.
I can't say whether either of those amps are good; it's just not my AO. Comparing them, however, might be similar to hardware vs. plugins in that, while the sound might be similar or indistinguishable, there are other factors which differentiate them and contribute to cost and preference.
For instance, I failed a blind test comparing amp sims to the real thing. I've even heard some amazing tones coming out of a Variax and Line 6 amp setup. Despite this, and given maintenance wasn't an issue, I'd prefer my DSL2000 with maybe some pedals or rack gear.
So maybe quality doesn't separate these products per se but their respective qualities do.
-m
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Post by Ethan Winer on Jul 30, 2016 16:56:32 GMT
It's mainly about marketing. Sure, if you make 100,000 units your cost to develop (and the cost of parts) are much less than the basement designer. But price often has little to do with quality. A $12 watch keeps time just as well as a $10,000 Rolex. Maybe even better.
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Post by Hexspa on Jul 30, 2016 19:06:18 GMT
It's mainly about marketing. Sure, if you make 100,000 units your cost to develop (and the cost of parts) are much less than the basement designer. But price often has little to do with quality. A $12 watch keeps time just as well as a $10,000 Rolex. Maybe even better. True. I was digging through my Army stuff and my Casio watch's time was accurate to something like, seconds after 9 years. But there's no way I'm going to wear it with a nice outfit.
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Post by Chris St'Aubyn on Jul 31, 2016 17:06:56 GMT
It's mainly about marketing. Sure, if you make 100,000 units your cost to develop (and the cost of parts) are much less than the basement designer. But price often has little to do with quality. A $12 watch keeps time just as well as a $10,000 Rolex. Maybe even better. Well yes this is true but with the case of a watch you're paying for more than time telling features at that price difference. Right now I have an RME Multiface but with all I've been reading from your book and articles it makes me wonder what's the true benefit of what I have verses the built in soundcard. I should probably test put it to the test. I know features like multi client drivers and inputs and outputs add up to the price but still I'm not completely convinced the price difference of interfaces are part of their true functional value.
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Post by Hexspa on Jul 31, 2016 18:05:23 GMT
It's mainly about marketing. Sure, if you make 100,000 units your cost to develop (and the cost of parts) are much less than the basement designer. But price often has little to do with quality. A $12 watch keeps time just as well as a $10,000 Rolex. Maybe even better. Well yes this is true but with the case of a watch you're paying for more than time telling features at that price difference. Right now I have an RME Multiface but with all I've been reading from your book and articles it makes me wonder what's the true benefit of what I have verses the built in soundcard. I should probably test put it to the test. I know features like multi client drivers and inputs and outputs add up to the price but still I'm not completely convinced the price difference of interfaces are part of their true functional value. But again, with that RME you're getting more than a soundcard (as far as I understand what a "soundcard" is) can provide. The Multiface II has zero ASIO cpu load - that's nice. I mean, it is about $1k but if you needed all it's features then that's what you'd have to buy - a little 1/8" I/O won't get you there.
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Post by Ethan Winer on Aug 1, 2016 20:34:31 GMT
But there's no way I'm going to wear it with a nice outfit. There are plenty of nice looking watches to be had for well under $100. I don't understand why people even wear watches. I have a watch that I use maybe once a year, if I'll be somewhere where I need to know the time, and there won't be a clock around, and I won't have my cell phone with me.
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Post by Hexspa on Aug 1, 2016 22:19:46 GMT
But there's no way I'm going to wear it with a nice outfit. There are plenty of nice looking watches to be had for well under $100. I don't understand why people even wear watches. I have a watch that I use maybe once a year, if I'll be somewhere where I need to know the time, and there won't be a clock around, and I won't have my cell phone with me. I think watch purchases are often for status and fashion - just like some interfaces. There could be a place for that. I think that, though diamonds and an Apogee faceplate don't enhance functionality necessarily, those features could have a psychological impact on owners, clients and prospects. We can't discount placebo and the psychological aspect in music seems to be paramount. We should just consider things in a balanced manner. I get that a lot of marketing is geared toward those intangibles but we can't throw the banana out with the peel. -m
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Post by rock on Aug 2, 2016 0:47:13 GMT
I have to admit I was growing tired of the wrist watch analogy but now I appreciate it and I think that the point has finally been made.
Cheers, Rock
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