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Post by Tyerac on Aug 9, 2016 22:41:10 GMT
Hi Ethan/All, I constructed my studio a year ago and during the construction I decided to build super chunk bass traps in both front corners. Problem is at the time I couldn't find enough material to help me understand how to stretch the fabric over the front so I had my construction guy put drywall over it temporarily until I was ready to face it with fabric. I used lots of Owens Corning R30 unfaced pink fluffy inside each of the traps (Loosely) so it just becomes a project of removing the front drywall and facing it with fabric to hopefully utilize the benefit of the super chunk traps. The issue is I notice there is a huge amount of bass build up in the back of the room, so much so that there sounds like no bass whatsoever in the front but when i go to the rear corners of the room it's REALLY bassey. I'm wondering if the cause of the bass in the rear is the fact the bass is hitting the drywall on the current bass traps at the front and being directed back into the rear corners, or is it another issue entirely? Would finishing the front bass traps & opening up the front of the super chunk's to reveal all the R30 help with this to absorb all the early reflection bass? or do I have a separate problem with the rear of the room also? The rear of the room both have 4" bass trap panels mounted at 45 degree's from each corner (Same angle as the super chunk at front) Attached is a picture of my front wall with each bass trap showing (Drywall faced) Thanks in advance!
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Post by tyerac on Aug 9, 2016 22:50:33 GMT
Hi Ethan/All, I constructed my studio a year ago and during the construction I decided to build super chunk bass traps in both front corners. Problem is at the time I couldn't find enough material to help me understand how to stretch the fabric over the front so I had my construction guy put drywall over it temporarily until I was ready to face it with fabric. I used lots of Owens Corning R30 unfaced pink fluffy inside each of the traps (Loosely) so it just becomes a project of removing the front drywall and facing it with fabric to hopefully utilize the benefit of the super chunk traps. The issue is I notice there is a huge amount of bass build up in the back of the room, so much so that there sounds like no bass whatsoever in the front but when i go to the rear corners of the room it's REALLY bassey. I'm wondering if the cause of the bass in the rear is the fact the bass is hitting the drywall on the current bass traps at the front and being directed back into the rear corners, or is it another issue entirely? Would finishing the front bass traps & opening up the front of the super chunk's to reveal all the R30 help with this to absorb all the early reflection bass? or do I have a separate problem with the rear of the room also? The rear of the room both have 4" bass trap panels mounted at 45 degree's from each corner (Same angle as the super chunk at front) Attached is a picture of my front wall with each bass trap showing (Drywall faced) Thanks in advance! Just reposting as I became a member of the forum!
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Post by Hexspa on Aug 9, 2016 23:45:05 GMT
Ok, I'm going to take a swing with the expectation I'll be corrected. Here we go. Regarding "no bass in front, boomy in the rear" I'm guessing it's a combination of two things: 1. Your superchunks are absorbing the bass that's going through the drywall and your room just is relatively more bassy in the rear and 2. You might have modal peaks in the rear and nulls in the front. Also, there is no "early reflection bass". There's something called the Schroeder frequency which says your room is basically one huge resonator at related frequencies below this cutoff. So, it's much less of "f<S bounces off my side walls and screws up my imaging" as it is "my room is at the mercy of f<S everywhere and is only mitigated by absorption." Hence, early reflections refer to f>S (i.e. "mid and highs") and "bass trapping" serves to control f<S where f is a frequency band and S is the Schroeder cutoff. You can enter in your dimensions here: amroc.andymel.eu/ but suffice it to say, as is convention in measuring, that everything below 300Hz is "bass" and is what you're seeking to control in your corners etc. If you take of the drywall, your chunks are just going to be more effective across all frequencies. -m
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Post by tyerac on Aug 10, 2016 0:39:53 GMT
Excellent and helpful response, thanks so much M. So Schroeder frequency isn't something thats bad per se? I'm guessing that ALL rooms are large resonator's, and its what you do to treat the room that has the biggest effect on taming frequencies? I did the room calculator and screenshot of the results is below. I must admit, i'm not 100% sure what i'm looking at if i'm honest, so more research is required I think. I'm pretty sure I need to treat more of the walls/ceiling with broadband absorption at minimum. I think I treated approx 70 sq feet of walls/ceiling so i need to triple that if i'm reading the calculators results correctly?
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Post by Hexspa on Aug 10, 2016 9:10:35 GMT
Schroeder frequency is a law akin to gravity - it's up to you to obey or disobey, there's no good or bad about it. I'm guessing the only rooms absolved of it's power are those that can accommodate a 20Hz wave in it's entirety in all dimensions (greater than 60ft high, wide and deep). However, those spaces (like a stadium) have their own acoustic challenges such as true reverb at sub-bass frequencies.
Before I analyze your chart you should be aware that "hovering over" a graph with your mouse reveals relevant info.
Ok, let's look at those charts. 1. You've entered in your dimensions. 2. The piano is a musical and visual way to see where your room resonates. I'd say you have a relatively even distribution of modal support which is good - i.e. the lines are equally and progressively spaced. 3. The Bonello (modes per third) Graph is good. It should be continuously ascending. While you have four all at one, it could be worse (as is in the case of my room where one of the pillars are less than the value of a previous one. As alluded to in (2) your modal instances should be more and more frequent (and even) as the frequency ascends. What SHOULDN'T happen is any inverse of said principle. 4. The Room 3D shows pressure zones of modes. So, if the colors (red and blue are equal) are at boundaries, that means you have a full or half wavelength standing at your dimensions. If you have three colors parallel it means you have double the mode and so on. See the text list below your screenshot for more detail - AX is axial (two surfaces) TAN is tangential (three surfaces) and OBL is four surfaces. Axial modes are your primary concern. 5. Bolt Area: See that X? It's not in the white area. This isn't surprising considering your room's volume is 1995ft3. The minimum recommended is 2500ft. Ideally your room will fall within that area. Oh well - tough cookies. 6. Volume: as I mentioned - your room is small. 7. Surface: good to know if you're going to treat some proportion of your total surface. 8. RT60 - Irrelevant in small rooms. 9. Schroederfrequency: they make it oneword which was initially confusing for me. I like when this is lower (right or wrong?) but yours happens to be 206Hz. Therefore when doing acoustic analysis with REW or equivalent make sure your response and waterfall bandwidths are unsmoothed to 206Hz. Essentially your room is a big coke bottle up to that frequency and everything beyond that is "bouncing around". 10. Critical distance: I have NO clue. 11. Equivalent absorption area: Look - you need as much absorption as possible to don't bother with these ivory tower numbers.
Ok? You owe me a beer.
Thanks
m
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Post by Hexspa on Aug 10, 2016 9:18:02 GMT
Quickly let me explain "Modes Per Third".
Mode: resonance Third: third octave (between a M3 and P4) Why: Room resonance isn't bad - actually it's good, it's a bra for your sound; it gives support. The problem is ringing (here the analogy loses relevance).
Essentially you want a room that works WITH you rather than against you. You want a "ramp up" of modal support in your room.
However, regardless of that endowment, you still need to control that support because it does "too good" of a job by ringing - like a chick with too much makeup.
Imagine it like a ramp - the big frequencies need less support but each smaller frequency subsequently needs more. That's why your Bonello chart should be strictly ascending.
Yours isn't. Neither is mine. Still you can work with it.
Ok, I hope that helped.
-m
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Post by Hexspa on Aug 10, 2016 9:21:03 GMT
Lastly, see how none of your room's dimensions are equal or multiples? That's good. The main two monsters you have are a low ceiling (<11ft) and lack of space (<2500ft3). We all know that Mr. Winer is the guru. However, I've condensed his, and some other, relevant info into my own series of how to set up a room. Please watch it - I have vids going up every thursday and they may be relevant to your interests as they cover just about everything I know. Here's the playlist: www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLf112S63WiBsq_oWZ8Pa5RLACk_O18qhYOk I'm done. Let me know if you have more questions - it helps me too. Thanks, -m
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Post by tyerac on Aug 10, 2016 15:16:14 GMT
Absolutely fantastic stuff M!! I am beginning the videos this morning, so looking forward to learning from them!
About that beer... I'd love to buy you one personally but i'm in Phoenix, Arizona so doubt you are in my neck of the woods. Great thing about the internet is I can 'virtually' buy ya one :-)
Whats your paypal? And the cost of a pint in your neck o' the woods?
Cheers
Kevin
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Post by rock on Aug 11, 2016 1:08:43 GMT
Hi Kevin,
On the less technical side, and at the risk of stating the obvious, you know you need to remove the drywall from your super chunks, right? There is no way to audibly assess the sound of your room with the DW in place. So when you do remove it, paper faced insulation should face the room. I know Ethan has tested rigid FG with FRK but since I'm not positive fluffy with paper facing gives the same increase in LF absorption, I can only guess that it does and ask if anyone else knows for sure. If not, I'd still suggest going with it. (your rear corner traps should have membrane facing the room too.)
As far as how to cover the super chunk: One very simple way is the frame the perimeter with furring strips. Bevel the vertical edges to the wall angle. Then staple and trim cut your material. Finally, attach moulding trim over the staples and around the super chunk.
BTW, you'll notice Hexspa's design is to make the super chunk portable but my description is for a permanent installation.
Cheers, Rock
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Post by Hexspa on Aug 11, 2016 3:22:57 GMT
Absolutely fantastic stuff M!! I am beginning the videos this morning, so looking forward to learning from them! About that beer... I'd love to buy you one personally but i'm in Phoenix, Arizona so doubt you are in my neck of the woods. Great thing about the internet is I can 'virtually' buy ya one :-) Whats your paypal? And the cost of a pint in your neck o' the woods? Cheers Kevin Hey, Kevin. The thought is enough. You've motivated me to get my Patreon going though. Cheers, -m
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Post by tyerac on Aug 11, 2016 18:02:24 GMT
"As far as how to cover the super chunk: One very simple way is the frame the perimeter with furring strips. Bevel the vertical edges to the wall angle. Then staple and trim cut your material. Finally, attach moulding trim over the staples and around the super chunk."Hey Rock, Thanks for the great comments. So, in terms of getting the right material inside the super chunks, I have read R30 pink fluffy, placed inside but NOT compressed is the best and cheapest type of material. Do I need to cut it into triangles like i've seen and stack it up to the top, with a small air gap behind it? Or can I use the unfazed type and place it in there so its full, but not uncompressed? Just trying to make sure i've got the right amount and type of absorption in there before I face it with material. Any pictures or articles you could point in my direction? Thanks again Kevin
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Post by Ethan Winer on Aug 11, 2016 21:34:34 GMT
If you have large corner bass traps but they're covered with drywall, then you don't have bass traps! You have to remove the drywall.
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Post by tyerac on Aug 11, 2016 21:52:18 GMT
If you have large corner bass traps but they're covered with drywall, then you don't have bass traps! You have to remove the drywall. Lol.. and you would be right.... So Ethan do you recommend filling with pink fluffy R30 (Faced or unfazed) And cut into a triangle and stacked or just loosely filled and then covered by fabric?
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Post by Hexspa on Aug 12, 2016 8:49:12 GMT
If you have large corner bass traps but they're covered with drywall, then you don't have bass traps! You have to remove the drywall. Lol.. and you would be right.... So Ethan do you recommend filling with pink fluffy R30 (Faced or unfazed) And cut into a triangle and stacked or just loosely filled and then covered by fabric? Best practice: lots of uncompressed fluffy with FRK adhered to room-facing surface. Lot's of ways to milk this goat. In fact you don't even have to cut the Rxx diagonally - just make squares for soffit-style. Regardless, you'll need supports every layer or so to prevent compression and tumbling (falling over). You can see my videos: www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4vfcu0cmy0 or search around but the song remains the same. Best, -m
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Post by rock on Aug 12, 2016 13:45:50 GMT
Just my opinion but I don't think you need to go to extremes to keep the fluffy from compressing itself. Keep in mind, it is compressed in the package and naturally expands when un-packed so I would not worry too much about it compressing itself under it's own weight. You might need a couple of vertical wires or mullions to keep it from falling forward but if it's 24" wide, I don't think there is much of a chance of that either. After you stretch and staple fabric in place, that would probably be enough but if you want insurance, it cant hurt.
Cheers, Rock
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