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Post by Joe Hamilton on Mar 18, 2017 20:04:18 GMT
I think it's time I join the 21st century - maybe. It might be time to update my monitoring situation, now that I've actually completed the first stage of acoustic treatment. It seems as though I fell aslep for a couple of decades and - POOF! - all monitors were now powered.
So, of course, I have a few questions.
Minimum acceptable listening distance? In other words, what is too close to one's monitors? (My 38% listening postion is just 59" from front wall).
Monitors' acceptable proximity to my front wall? (currently covered with 2" 703, 2" from wall - likely to be switched soon to 4" 705 @ 4" out). I seem to recall Ethan mentioning closer is actually better - pointing-out soffit-mounted as an example. But this likely wouldn't hold true for rear-ported units - would it?
Front-ported vs. Rear-ported? Pros - Cons?
Maximum useful woofer size for a given room volume? Is there not a point beyond which there are diminishing returns? I have a rather small 1077 cu ft. project studio - 12'10" x 8'7" with a sloped ceiling - 6'6" at front wall and rising to 12'11 at rear.
Or should I just keep using my "updated" 8" Ohm L's driven by my Crown D-75A?
The JBL LSR 305 looks interesting. But a 5" 'woofer'? Doesn't seem like it'd have much 'woof'. Maybe the '308. I remember that, back in the '60's, in all of the studios I use to hang-out at in Detroit - United Sound, Golden World, Terra Shirma - it seemed that EVERYONE had JBL monitors. Of course, my memory ain't what it used to be, either. Could've been Altec. And the other thing is, so what - totally different world.
Anyway, any advice appreciated.
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Post by Hexspa on Mar 19, 2017 7:34:12 GMT
I think it's time I join the 21st century - maybe. It might be time to update my monitoring situation, now that I've actually completed the first stage of acoustic treatment. It seems as though I fell aslep for a couple of decades and - POOF! - all monitors were now powered. So, of course, I have a few questions. Minimum acceptable listening distance? In other words, what is too close to one's monitors? (My 38% listening postion is just 59" from front wall). Monitors' acceptable proximity to my front wall? (currently covered with 2" 703, 2" from wall - likely to be switched soon to 4" 705 @ 4" out). I seem to recall Ethan mentioning closer is actually better - pointing-out soffit-mounted as an example. But this likely wouldn't hold true for rear-ported units - would it? Front-ported vs. Rear-ported? Pros - Cons? Maximum useful woofer size for a given room volume? Is there not a point beyond which there are diminishing returns? I have a rather small 1077 cu ft. project studio - 12'10" x 8'7" with a sloped ceiling - 6'6" at front wall and rising to 12'11 at rear. Or should I just keep using my "updated" 8" Ohm L's driven by my Crown D-75A? The JBL LSR 305 looks interesting. But a 5" 'woofer'? Doesn't seem like it'd have much 'woof'. Maybe the '308. I remember that, back in the '60's, in all of the studios I use to hang-out at in Detroit - United Sound, Golden World, Terra Shirma - it seemed that EVERYONE had JBL monitors. Of course, my memory ain't what it used to be, either. Could've been Altec. And the other thing is, so what - totally different world. Anyway, any advice appreciated. Listening distance: in the Grammy whitepaper (search or dl my book) the recommended distance is about 7.5' iirc. I'm not sure why they say that but, in my experience, distance does a few things namely: creates a larger sound stage (imaging) and introduces more "room tone" into the sound. I happen to like my speakers further away (although mine are currently further than 7.5' by inadvertence). As far as minimums go, I would say arm's length is about as close as you'd want them. Usually you have some kind of monitor between them, or at least a stereo receiver, so you can use those features as a starting point. Regarding ports and walls: it's been shown that I don't fully understand ports. What I gathered is that, roughly at and above the resonance of the port, no air moves from them as they are effectively a solid surface. Roughly at or below and there is resonance and air. So, depending on the design (which is probably related to the woofer size) it might become an issue. I think there might be more to a speaker's polar pattern beyond the port, though. I've read that flush-mounted speakers are best. Second best would be 10' from any boundary (although practically impossible). Third best is probably close to the wall. The actual best thing you can do is to measure the response using REW and kit. First put the speakers in a corner with all treatment removed. Measure from the LP and other samples around the room to get a picture of "untreated". Then, with mic at LP, move the speakers along the equilateral planes using an RTA to determine ideal positioning. That's what I plan to do next. Not sure I've read anything about speaker size relative to room volume. I think mostly it comes down to not needing as much speaker to get the job done. 8" monitors tend to be flattest. The HS8 is flatter, and bass more low end extension, than the HS5. Same goes for other manufacturers. You can use a sub with an 8" monitor so I think it mostly comes down to budget rather than 5" being better for the kitchen unless space is an issue. So, if 8" does the job then 15" might drop some jaws but no one will be more impressed than you lol. Please await a second opinion before taking action. -m
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Post by arnyk on Mar 19, 2017 14:52:55 GMT
Ahh, Mr. Hexspa. I have to admit that after looking at your videos and your book, I want to be a fan. So many irons in the fire, and so much good, helpful fire. That all said, our past interactions have been hard on you (judging by the posted screams of pain) and that probably isn't going to stop. You have to learn that someone who brings alternative thoughts to you that may go in a different direction than you are currently going, and basically likes you and even admires your energy and some of things you have done, may be the best friend you ever have. I followed that methodology when finding a wife and after 50 years, I'd hazard a guess that based on results, it is a working strategy. Did much the same with with my friends as possible. And I look at my children, and they all did their version of the same, and it has yielded happy, productive, loving relationships, a clutch of grandchildren, and some really pretty good lives. Let me brag: Look into the Krueger guy on this page - my #2 son. Again: One my daughter's recent pepers. Then there is my oldest son who has less visibility because he is in private industry: Linkedin Profile of my Number 1 son . That all said I was excited and challenged by your sound absorbers. The excitement was from the basic concept, but the challenges are their their appearance and component problems. The component problem is simple - IME fiber thermal insulation is generally found to be suboptimal for acoustic purposes. True acoustic absorbent material is widely available in the US and fairly economical. The generally preferred products are Dow Corning 70x and competitive products including Roxul mineral wool, and the more pleasing to work with organic fiber based products. I can and have bought either off-the-shelf for competitive prices within an easy drive of my home, and I suspect that so can others. The appearance problem is that the Erector Set on steroids techno appearance is low on WAF, and that extends further than females. I'm seriously thinking of building some and addressing that. But otherwise, please let me continue to encourage you in your technical pursuits.
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Post by arnyk on Mar 19, 2017 15:17:32 GMT
I think it's time I join the 21st century - maybe. It might be time to update my monitoring situation, now that I've actually completed the first stage of acoustic treatment. It seems as though I fell aslep for a couple of decades and - POOF! - all monitors were now powered. So, of course, I have a few questions. Minimum acceptable listening distance? In other words, what is too close to one's monitors? (My 38% listening postion is just 59" from front wall). Depends on the monitors. The answer is dependent on the speakers, the room, and your sensitivity as a listener.. The biggest issue is usually driver blending. If you can image the tweeter separately from the woofer, you are too close. Most good modern small moniotrs are fairly well blended 3 feet out since that is a standard measurement point. Rear ports are IME often pontificated upon based on prejudices. I can think of one bad experience with rear ports - the speakers were on a shelf that enclosed them on five sides and the enclosed space resonated. Bad sound! On speaker stands and the like, not so much. Just don't block the port or change it by connecting it to an enclosed space. The usual rule of thumb is to look at the volume that the port exits into. It should immediately become 10 times or larger in area than the speaker port itself. The thing about room volume is that the room introduces a 12 dB per octave upward slow in frequency response with declining frequency. The corner frequency drops as the room gets larger. So small rooms add this boost at a relatively high frequency and you make speakers with good bass response sound boomy. If the room is just right, the speakers roll off and the room rolls on at the same frequency and compensate for each other. If the room is too large, the response from the speaker falls off before the room boost cuts in and you haee a hole in your bass response which makes things sound thin and even ugly. I have LSR 308s but use 3 of them (LCR) them soffit mounted, shooting down a 15' wide, 23 foot long, and 10 foot ceiling-ed room with two 12" subwoofers, each with internal amps and independent eq. That said, 308's sound pretty good in small living rooms barefoot, but subwoofers are really good tools.
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Post by Hexspa on Mar 19, 2017 20:11:59 GMT
Ahh, Mr. Hexspa. I have to admit that after looking at your videos and your book, I want to be a fan. So many irons in the fire, and so much good, helpful fire. That all said, our past interactions have been hard on you (judging by the posted screams of pain) and that probably isn't going to stop. You have to learn that someone who brings alternative thoughts to you that may go in a different direction than you are currently going, and basically likes you and even admires your energy and some of things you have done, may be the best friend you ever have. I followed that methodology when finding a wife and after 50 years, I'd hazard a guess that based on results, it is a working strategy. Did much the same with with my friends as possible. And I look at my children, and they all did their version of the same, and it has yielded happy, productive, loving relationships, a clutch of grandchildren, and some really pretty good lives. Let me brag: Look into the Krueger guy on this page - my #2 son. Again: One my daughter's recent pepers. Then there is my oldest son who has less visibility because he is in private industry: Linkedin Profile of my Number 1 son . That all said I was excited and challenged by your sound absorbers. The excitement was from the basic concept, but the challenges are their their appearance and component problems. The component problem is simple - IME fiber thermal insulation is generally found to be suboptimal for acoustic purposes. True acoustic absorbent material is widely available in the US and fairly economical. The generally preferred products are Dow Corning 70x and competitive products including Roxul mineral wool, and the more pleasing to work with organic fiber based products. I can and have bought either off-the-shelf for competitive prices within an easy drive of my home, and I suspect that so can others. The appearance problem is that the Erector Set on steroids techno appearance is low on WAF, and that extends further than females. I'm seriously thinking of building some and addressing that. But otherwise, please let me continue to encourage you in your technical pursuits. So you say you like some of my work. Revel in my suffering. Brag about your family. Don't realize that I'm using mineral wool. And think my panels are ugly. Good for you, Arny. Thanks for posting your opinion which from here on out will be fully ignored by me. But, since I have acknowledged you this one last time, let me set the record straight about IIG1280 vs OC703: MinWool-1200 Industrial Board 1280 2" (51mm) 8 pcf (128 kg/m^3) 0.32 0.90 1.11 1.07 1.01 1.05 1.00 703, plain 2" (51mm) on wall 3.0 pcf (48 kg/m3) 0.17 0.86 1.14 1.07 1.02 0.98 1.00 www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htmSo, sure, pound for pound, it might not be as good but it works pretty darn well according to the chart and in my own verified experience. Peace, -m
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Post by rock on Mar 20, 2017 0:15:51 GMT
The fly on the wall comments: These internet conversations can be quite strained and the underlying sentiment can, as you know, easily be misinterpreted...too bad I'll bet if you two guys were talking face to face..., maybe over a beer or two, you might derive a different conclusion... and then again, maybe not? Cheers, Rock
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Post by arnyk on Mar 20, 2017 1:27:53 GMT
The fly on the wall comments: These internet conversations can be quite strained and the underlying sentiment can, as you know, easily be misinterpreted...too bad I'll bet if you two guys were talking face to face..., maybe over a beer or two, you might derive a different conclusion... and then again, maybe not? Cheers, Rock I tried. BTW his online book specifically mentions "Rxx insulation" and does not mention mineral wool. It mentions rigid insulation which is insulation that is treated with a resin to make it that way. The 70x-style insulation is rigid, but its key acoustic characteristic is that it has far higher density. I feel like I've just been ambushed. ;-(
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Post by rock on Mar 20, 2017 2:39:10 GMT
Hey, I'm not taking sides and trying to be neutral here, but in this environment, anything can be taken either way... and that's my point. May cooler heads prevail.
Cheers, Rock
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Post by sal1950 on Mar 20, 2017 2:52:53 GMT
The fly on the wall comments: These internet conversations can be quite strained and the underlying sentiment can, as you know, easily be misinterpreted...too bad I'll bet if you two guys were talking face to face..., maybe over a beer or two, you might derive a different conclusion... and then again, maybe not? Cheers, Rock I tried. BTW his online book specifically mentions "Rxx insulation" and does not mention mineral wool. It mentions rigid insulation which is insulation that is treated with a resin to make it that way. The 70x-style insulation is rigid, but its key acoustic characteristic is that it has far higher density. I feel like I've just been ambushed. ;-( You tried??? There is undoubtedly some serious history here, but since Mr Hamilton asked a simple question and Hexspa was nice enough to attempt an answer, why did you find it necessary to jump all over him personally. You could have just debated his opinion with out all the rest. Totally uncalled for and I find it embarrassing for you. Who was it that got ambushed? For Shame Arnyk
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Post by Ethan Winer on Mar 27, 2017 14:40:34 GMT
Minimum acceptable listening distance?Monitors' acceptable proximity to my front wall?Front-ported vs. Rear-ported? Pros - Cons? Maximum useful woofer size for a given room volume? As Arny said it depends on the room. In a 10x12 foot bedroom you have to be very close, even if you have plenty of acoustic treatment to minimize the effect of reflections from nearby surfaces. The 7.5 feet or even farther Hex mentioned is more appropriate for a larger professional size mix room. Same for Monitors. The best place for speakers is built into the walls. My article How To Set Up A Room explains more. Contrary to some opinions, ported speakers can be fine. Some early models were not good, which tarnished the concept to some people. I honestly don't know if front or rear is better, or even if either is better than the other. I'm a big fan of Mackie active monitors, and they all have a rear port. But if you put your speakers inside a wall, that won't work! I disagree with the opinion that there's some maximum speaker size for a given room size. At least acoustically. Practicality is another issue.
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Post by philietes on Mar 31, 2017 19:49:47 GMT
I would like to chime in with some relevant questions, if that is OK with everyone :-) Just this week I bought a pair of Mackie HR824 on the second hand market! They do sound amazing. As of now, I tried to perfect the speaker placement but my room is still untreated.
- In my quite small room (5to3meter) do I need to activate the low-pass filter at 37/47/80Hz to minimize the exaggerated bass a bit? - My small Xone 22 mixer is connected over balanced XLR but the volume control (Master Out) is very sensitive. As in that the lowest possible volume is already too loud for late night listening. Should I buy a volume attenuator or control the volume in any other recommended way. Another reason for this, is that I am scared I will eventually turn my monitors on with the Volume setting (Master Out) set too high by accident and blow my new speakers at once.. - Apparently it is recommended to turn off the speakers in your rig last, and turn them off first to prevent peak voltages. Will it be OK if I connect everything to the same power strip and shut them down all at once?
Phil
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Post by rock on Mar 31, 2017 20:25:48 GMT
Your last question about power: I find Power ON is most likely to create pops which can damage the speakers. Power off can too so it's usually best to switch power amps or powered speakers ON last and OFF first.
A volume attenuator (especially with calibrated steps) is nice to have between the mixer or computer interface out and the powered speaker in. Besides the turn on sequence, it's nice to have a level control for mixing/monitoring/playback at different, resettable levels.
As far as exaggerated bass, this is where your room treatment will help but if your speakers are in a corner or against a wall or on the floor, there will more bass than if on a stand away from boundaries so the "space switch" may help in those situations.
The Bass switch is a Roll OFF not a low pass. The manual says 80 is for use with subs so set to 37 for normal use. I'm just reading this from the manual, something anyone should be able to do. Please download the manual and read it.
Cheers, Rock
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Post by Joe Hamilton on Mar 31, 2017 20:40:35 GMT
I would like to chime in with some relevant questions, if that is OK with everyone :-) Just this week I bought a pair of Mackie HR824 on the second hand market! They do sound amazing. As of now, I tried to perfect the speaker placement but my room is still untreated. - In my quite small room (5to3meter) do I need to activate the low-pass filter at 37/47/80Hz to minimize the exaggerated bass a bit? - My small Xone 22 mixer is connected over balanced XLR but the volume control (Master Out) is very sensitive. As in that the lowest possible volume is already too loud for late night listening. Should I buy a volume attenuator or control the volume in any other recommended way. Another reason for this, is that I am scared I will eventually turn my monitors on with the Volume setting (Master Out) set too high by accident and blow my new speakers at once.. - Apparently it is recommended to turn off the speakers in your rig last, and turn them off first to prevent peak voltages. Will it be OK if I connect everything to the same power strip and shut them down all at once? Phil I believe you meant to say, "Turn ON the speakers last."
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Post by arnyk on Apr 1, 2017 10:28:30 GMT
I would like to chime in with some relevant questions, if that is OK with everyone :-) Just this week I bought a pair of Mackie HR824 on the second hand market! They do sound amazing. As of now, I tried to perfect the speaker placement but my room is still untreated. - In my quite small room (5to3meter) do I need to activate the low-pass filter at 37/47/80Hz to minimize the exaggerated bass a bit? - My small Xone 22 mixer is connected over balanced XLR but the volume control (Master Out) is very sensitive. As in that the lowest possible volume is already too loud for late night listening. Should I buy a volume attenuator or control the volume in any other recommended way. Another reason for this, is that I am scared I will eventually turn my monitors on with the Volume setting (Master Out) set too high by accident and blow my new speakers at once.. - Apparently it is recommended to turn off the speakers in your rig last, and turn them off first to prevent peak voltages. Will it be OK if I connect everything to the same power strip and shut them down all at once? Phil Whether or not the bass switch will do what you want, depends on you and your room. TRy it! It could help. I concur with rock about the convenience of an attenuator, especially in situations where the amp's input is too sensitive. Here are some options: TC Electronics big knob - many retaileRs, google is your friend NVX Universal Bass Knob (XBRC) A-Designs ATTY Or since you have a mixer, just cut all of the input gain settings the same amount, and that should have a similar effect. As far as the order of turning things on and off, if you have turn on thumps, then turning on the amps or active speakers last helps. If thumps aren't a problem, then you may be able to get away with one switch on a power strip.
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Post by Ethan Winer on Apr 4, 2017 20:39:48 GMT
I think it's a mistake to high-pass speakers to "avoid exciting room mode problems" as is often suggested. Or buying speakers with little 4 or 5 inch woofers. That's like sticking your head in the sand. It doesn't solve anything, it just hides the problem. However, that's different from the quarter and half space switch settings, which are useful.
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