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Groove
Jul 9, 2017 5:22:13 GMT
Post by Hexspa on Jul 9, 2017 5:22:13 GMT
Maybe this is fodder for another forum but... ...how do the musicians among you count or feel meter? Sounds like a stupid question on the surface. Maybe I was just never taught correctly. I know about note values etc. I'm referring to syncopation, if not polymeter. It all started when I watched this video called Feeling the and. I'd realized I never really put much thought into 8th notes. But the more I listened to music with this specific concept in mind I noticed that many, if not all, songs have a sort of dual-meter thing happening with the groove. Before I explain further, I should preface by saying there is a bass player somewhere who advocates only tapping your foot down on the strong beats i.e. beats one and three. There's validity to this since most chord changes happen on strong beats and it saves your foot half the burden, especially during faster tracks (tunes, pieces, sections - whatever). I suggest trying it if all you've ever done is tap to the pulse which is usually quarter notes. So you have "strong beat" foot tapping and regular "quarter" tapping. The former puts beats two and four when your foot is up. The latter places 8th notes when the foot is up. Here's where it gets interesting: bass moves to strong beats but the higher you go up the frequency spectrum the more there is a tendency toward 16th notes or faster. That would be all well and good except of the way the accent is placed. Typically we're taught to count 16th notes as ONE-ee-and-uh, TWO-ee-and-uh etc as per the "strong beat" concept. But, in actual practice, usually the 8th note is accented so the sound is more: one-ee-AND-uh, two-ee-AND-uh. In that sense, this syncopated 16th note pattern creates another backbeat besides what's usually happening on the second quarter note. I should end by saying that I'm also aware of half-time feel where the snare goes on the three but I'm not referring to that. I guess that, in the end, it's just 16th note syncopation but it's still pretty interesting. There's just a lot of fascination listening to music now hearing something previously unnoted. Thanks.
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Post by Ethan Winer on Jul 9, 2017 17:23:31 GMT
I think it's most important to know where One is. Yes, hand claps and snare drums go on the Ands. But the main beats are the guide posts if you will. I assume you've seen my Music Theory videos? If not (or for others here), this is the full set, and the timing stuff is in Part 4: Basic Music Theory
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Groove
Jul 10, 2017 3:00:20 GMT
Post by Hexspa on Jul 10, 2017 3:00:20 GMT
I think it's most important to know where One is. Yes, hand claps and snare drums go on the Ands. But the main beats are the guide posts if you will. I assume you've seen my Music Theory videos? If not (or for others here), this is the full set, and the timing stuff is in Part 4: Basic Music TheoryCool. Haven't seen em but I will watch.
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Groove
Jul 10, 2017 11:13:11 GMT
Post by Hexspa on Jul 10, 2017 11:13:11 GMT
Holy crap.
I didn't realize you were so knowledgeable about harmony and theory.
I've only watched the second video but I immediately noticed how it was presented in your typical cool style.
There was a lot I didn't know and learned.
Your first video was blocked due to a copyright claim. I find that unfortunate.
I'm curious as to how you know so deeply about such a breadth of styles. Did you transcribe these pieces out of interest or was there another reason you learned about them?
Anyway, marvelous presentation. I loved the musical examples and the DOH! accenting the "sharp four" was classic.
These are definitely long segments but I look forward to watching more.
Thanks!
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Groove
Jul 11, 2017 21:01:55 GMT
Post by Ethan Winer on Jul 11, 2017 21:01:55 GMT
The comments for the first Music Theory video has a link to Vimeo where it's not blocked. Here's that link for you convenience: vimeo.com/album/3850080
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Groove
Jul 13, 2017 16:01:59 GMT
Post by Hexspa on Jul 13, 2017 16:01:59 GMT
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Groove
Jul 13, 2017 16:29:48 GMT
Post by Hexspa on Jul 13, 2017 16:29:48 GMT
Ethan, I have to say, for the most part the videos are stellar.
There are a few mistakes, however.
Please forgive me for pointing them out but, according to a rule I've learned, it's been over 24 hours and I still feel bugged.
In your second video: your circle of fifths omits some enharmonic minors in addition to the existing ones having a lower case letter for the key name.
In the first video: the "minor third on the guitar" example actually works out to be a diminished fifth. The song sounds to be in Eb rather than F#/Gb. Also, the (minor) blues scale, as I understand it, is actually 1-b3-4-b5-5-b7. Another variation trades the b7 for a M6. In this video it's stated that the major pentatonic is known as the blues scale but, in my life, I've never heard that. There is also a major blues scale but it's 1-2-b3-3-5-6.
I might be wrong about some of this. I was going to mention something else but then realized my error. I just can't go recommending videos without giving my full opinion. Sorry but I get picky about this stuff.
Good point about intervals being deliberately notated incorrectly to facilitate legibility at the end of the first video.
Thanks.
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Groove
Jul 17, 2017 19:36:24 GMT
Post by Ethan Winer on Jul 17, 2017 19:36:24 GMT
I'm glad to have you or anyone point out errors, so don't be shy! But I'm not sure I know where you mean about the minor third on a guitar. Can you tell me the time (where) in the video you mean?
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Groove
Jul 18, 2017 3:21:20 GMT
Post by Hexspa on Jul 18, 2017 3:21:20 GMT
I'm glad to have you or anyone point out errors, so don't be shy! But I'm not sure I know where you mean about the minor third on a guitar. Can you tell me the time (where) in the video you mean? Video 1, 14:18, Eric Burdon guitar/vocals. I'm hearing the bass root on Eb and the guitar is playing a Bbb while he sings the Bbb and the Bb. Whether writing it as Bbb (probably correct given that I'd call this the actual Blues scale which is known as having a D5) or A natural, it'd be messy on paper regardless considering that the Ab (P4) is featured prominently in the bass and guitar. The bass is playing a root-P4 pattern instead of the typical root-P5 so that's neat. I wouldn't call it an inversion either because the resolution definitely sounds to be on Eb to me. But then again I just started learning relative pitch recently. What I mean is practicing it regularly. Seems like all I do lately is sing major and minor scales. Thanks.
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Post by Ethan Winer on Jul 21, 2017 19:05:42 GMT
Listening again now it seems the song starts with the IV chord (Ab) for the guitar opening, then goes to the I chord when Eric starts singing the verse. But I think I see the problem. At the time Eric is singing, and the guitar plays between his lines, the exact chord playing then isn't clearly defined. The chord might be Eb, yet the bass goes between Eb and Ab which implies an Ab chord. But if that's the case then what I call a "minor third" is actually a flat 9th. Or maybe it's as you said, with the bass alternating to a 4th instead of a 5th. So I won't argue with you. I guess I could have picked a better example of the point I was trying to make! I didn't even notice the discrepancy until you point it out. So thanks.
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Groove
Jul 22, 2017 0:26:58 GMT
Post by Hexspa on Jul 22, 2017 0:26:58 GMT
Listening again now it seems the song starts with the IV chord (Ab) for the guitar opening, then goes to the I chord when Eric starts singing the verse. But I think I see the problem. At the time Eric is singing, and the guitar plays between his lines, the exact chord playing then isn't clearly defined. The chord might be Eb, yet the bass goes between Eb and Ab which implies an Ab chord. But if that's the case then what I call a "minor third" is actually a flat 9th. Or maybe it's as you said, with the bass alternating to a 4th instead of a 5th. So I won't argue with you. I guess I could have picked a better example of the point I was trying to make! I didn't even notice the discrepancy until you point it out. So thanks. TL;DR - music is tricky. Thanks for being cool. I thought about analyzing it as a b9 but it doesn't make sense melodically. Who alternates between a m9 and a M9 in pop music? As I'm sure you know, typically the melody notes emphasize chord tones. I know that a ninth IS a chord tone eventually but ya. The diminished fifth is used more often and to imply a blues sound in a minor key. In fact, I just found out today, "Oogie Oogie Boogie" by Taste of Honey in 1978 uses the D5. Besides, and most importantly, to my ear, the resolution is Eb. Additionally, it's more likely that the key is in Eb, as opposed to Ab, because it's a guitar and tuning it down a half-step makes more sense. Adam Messinger and Dave Pensado talked about this. Dave mentioned how Db major is a weird key for a Pop song with a guitar. Thing is, though, Messinger was a Jazz player and had the sense to choose a key that fit Nasri Atweh's voice. Wikipedia says the song is in Bb minor but, I'm sorry, no it's not. The progression is IV V I VIm and the melody resolves to Db. I just updated it and here's the reference. I agree that the opening sequence of many songs makes things tricky. For instance, "I Just Want To Be Your Everything" by Andy Gibb in 1977 uses some pedal bass over what's essentially a bVI - bVII - Imaj. The fact that the first chord is an F followed by suspensions then ultimately resolving to parallel major kind of tricks your ear. Kind of a neat progression, if you want to try it out: Intro: |F G/F | F/G G | F/G G/A | (A minor lick) | A note || Rest of song: A major melody and progression with a V/IIm half way through the chorus. I thought the intro was in F initially. I should've waited and listened first to where it resolves. Rookie mistake. I won't put all the chords here but I really love how elegantly they're used as well as in "How Deep Is Your Love" and others. Blue Weaver actually responded, in a very casual way, to me gushing to him via email about the progression in "How Deep". It was a high moment. About arguing: it's tough when doing analysis because we might hear different things. When transcribing, I often get lost between the key center and the chord that's happening that moment. It's getting better though. Thanks for being open about it.
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Groove
Jul 22, 2017 0:59:43 GMT
Post by Hexspa on Jul 22, 2017 0:59:43 GMT
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Post by Ethan Winer on Jul 22, 2017 16:13:23 GMT
LOL, maybe. Actually, listening again, it's clear that those higher notes go between a normal 5th and a flat 5th. So yeah, you're right.
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