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Post by sal1950 on Jul 12, 2017 14:28:16 GMT
Surprising indeed. I would not have thought the DC resistance of different samples of 12ga could vary so much! Caveat emptor! As far as the DC measurements are concerned, I think the author should have opted for a much longer test sample length. The coil non-uniformity from sample to sample should not matter for DC. Cheers, Rock This info was posted on The AV (anti) Science forum some years ago, before he got booted off. Pretending that everything that is not super-sized by almost 50% is deficient is false and deceptive. But it makes the report look so much more spectacular, does it not? I pointed this out at the time, but who the #&!! am I? ;-) I believe you have your forums confused. That which you refer to be that bastion of audiophool lunacy Whats Best Forum. Steve and friends there couldn't deal with Amir's posting of what they consider anti-audiophile measurements. But what's really confusing is you seem to have some ax to grind here. The man does some honest work to hopefully shed some light into the darkness of the "I hear it, so it is real" world. You retort with some irrelevant comments in a vain attempt to discredit a honest piece of measurement? Bad Show Arny
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Post by Hexspa on Jul 12, 2017 14:45:09 GMT
When I was younger, I wired up my guitar rack with monster cables. I thought it sounded different. Then again I was victim to the same "put-em-in-then-listen-again" flaw as previously mentioned. rock mentions damping factor which seems like it might be related to ohms. We also did a listening test to a Marshall cabinet in 4, 8 and 16 ohms and found that the sound went from wide open to choked respectively. Whether I could tell the difference ABX now, I don't know. Interestingly enough, due to the fact that high impedance guitar pickups are fairly common, tuning the tone of a guitar with different kinds and lengths of guitar cable is possible. Different lengths and different capacitance per foot can possibly matter. This differs from audio gear, where almost all gear has very low output source impedances. Also, some headphone amps have excessively high source impedances that can interact with low impedance headphones that also have rough impedance curves and audibly affect sound quality. I was using EMG-81 pickups reported to have 10kOhm impedance.
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Post by arnyk on Jul 12, 2017 14:58:28 GMT
This info was posted on The AV (anti) Science forum some years ago, before he got booted off. Pretending that everything that is not super-sized by almost 50% is deficient is false and deceptive. But it makes the report look so much more spectacular, does it not? I pointed this out at the time, but who the #&!! am I? ;-) I believe you have your forums confused. That which you refer to be that bastion of audiophool lunacy Whats Best Forum. That's recent history. I'm talking ancient history, like maybe 4 years ago. ;-) Yeah, Science does not always tell you what you want to hear. But Amir has a reputation for ummm, bending science. If you study AVS when he was allowed to post there, you will find that I schooled him about audio quite a bit. I don't think he will repeat his mistake about the audibility of LEDs. Some things I tried to teach him stuck. Some didn't. Amir's lab work itself seems to be unassailable. I was talking about its interpretation. My comments about his choice of baseline and its effects on his report are equally factual and therefore unassailable. I pointed our where Amir used an exceptional standard to bad-mouth a lot of honest, in-spec products. If bad-mouthing is bad, why don't you agree with the unassailable facts? And, If I really did what you bad-mouthed me for, where is your evidence? Your claim of irrelevant comments appears to be undocumented at this point. I've proven you wrong at least once, grasshopper. If you want to get me off my duff and actually try to do something, keep on with what you are doing.
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Post by arnyk on Jul 12, 2017 15:02:21 GMT
Interestingly enough, due to the fact that high impedance guitar pickups are fairly common, tuning the tone of a guitar with different kinds and lengths of guitar cable is possible. Different lengths and different capacitance per foot can possibly matter. This differs from audio gear, where almost all gear has very low output source impedances. Also, some headphone amps have excessively high source impedances that can interact with low impedance headphones that also have rough impedance curves and audibly affect sound quality. I was using EMG-81 pickups reported to have 10kOhm impedance. In comparison, speaker impedance ranges from 2 to 80 ohms or so, and line level SS components range from 75 ohms to maybe a thousand ohms. Knowing what I know, I would be more comfortable with actual lab measurements of the guitar pickups, which I do have for the gear I just mentioned.
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Post by sal1950 on Jul 12, 2017 15:37:59 GMT
I've proven you wrong at least once, grasshopper. If you want to get me off my duff and actually try to do something, keep on with what you are doing. I'll give you this, you can do an excellent bit of hand waving. In the end you revealed even more sharpening of your ax against the man. The world is so lucky to have your "superior intellect", we will all benefit from your correction of others. Even when there was no need of such.
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Post by arnyk on Jul 12, 2017 16:18:27 GMT
I've proven you wrong at least once, grasshopper. If you want to get me off my duff and actually try to do something, keep on with what you are doing. I'll give you this, you can do an excellent bit of hand waving. In the end you revealed even more sharpening of your ax against the man. The world is so lucky to have your "superior intellect", we will all benefit from your correction of others. Even when there was no need of such. Clearly you are unfamiliar with the concept of hand waving. It is apparently just a phrase that you throw around. Hand waving is what you do because even when it is politely asked for, you continue to refrain from making a factual argument. Just to make sure we understand your state of mind, you throw in a few personal attacks. For your education and future reference, here is an example of a non-hand-waving factual argument: (1) Amir used a non-standard super-sized reference. He used the actual size of the almost 50% oversized Belden wire as his standard, but it is not an official standard. Belden doesn't even use it as a standard. The standard number is generally agreed upon, well-known, and widely disseminated. It even has the force of law via the Building Code. (2) Amir used that super-sized non-standard example as his standard of comparison for competitive products. He never said that is what he was doing. Where is the hand waving? BTW here is a link to Amir's origional 2014 AVS forum post: www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1520500-review-incl-just-got-monoprice-speaker-wire-why-do-you-guys-reccomend-so-much-9.html#post24515985
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Post by Shane on Jul 14, 2017 11:58:56 GMT
Thank you all for your replies. I really appreciate it.
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Post by Ethan Winer on Jul 17, 2017 19:43:30 GMT
Thanks to Arny for going through all that and saving me the effort. I can add that the importance of damping factor is overrated. When you consider that the resistance of the speaker's voice coil is several ohms, and that's in series with the wire, the wire's much small resistance is rarely a factor except with very long lengths for very thin wire. Then add to that the resistance of a passive crossover's inductor. I don't doubt that a tube guitar amp will sound different with different impedance speakers. Tube amps are much more sensitive to load impedance than solid state amps, and especially when comparing a guitar amp to a solid state amp meant for high fidelity applications.
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Post by Shane on Jul 18, 2017 11:47:28 GMT
Thanks to Arny for going through all that and saving me the effort. I can add that the importance of damping factor is overrated. When you consider that the resistance of the speaker's voice coil is several ohms, and that's in series with the wire, the wire's much small resistance is rarely a factor except with very long lengths for very thin wire. Then add to that the resistance of a passive crossover's inductor. I don't doubt that a tube guitar amp will sound different with different impedance speakers. Tube amps are much more sensitive to load impedance than solid state amps, and especially when comparing a guitar amp to a solid state amp meant for high fidelity applications. Thanks, Ethan
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Post by arnyk on Jul 18, 2017 15:20:42 GMT
Thanks to Arny for going through all that and saving me the effort. I can add that the importance of damping factor is overrated. When you consider that the resistance of the speaker's voice coil is several ohms, and that's in series with the wire, the wire's much small resistance is rarely a factor except with very long lengths for very thin wire. Then add to that the resistance of a passive crossover's inductor. I don't doubt that a tube guitar amp will sound different with different impedance speakers. Tube amps are much more sensitive to load impedance than solid state amps, and especially when comparing a guitar amp to a solid state amp meant for high fidelity applications. Thanks, Ethan The usual rule of thumb is that if the source impedance of the power amp (which is the rated load impedance of the amp divided by Damping Factor) plus the resistance of the speaker wire is 1/20 or less than the DC resistance of the speaker (which is usually minimum at 20% less than its rated impedance) then the audible effects of the damping factor of the amp and the speaker wire is at worst barely audible. For example, a power amp might have a damping factor of 40 or more for 4 ohm loads. Therefore, its source impedance is 0.1 ohms. 8 feet of 12 gauge wire has a resistance of 8 times 0.0015 ohms or 0.012 ohms which means that compared to the source impedance of the power amp, it can be ignored because it iis about 10 times less. 0.1 ohms is 1/40 of 4 ohms so the 1/20 rule is more than satisfied. The 12 gauge wire was never the issue, but the damping factor of the power amp was enough to worry about for at least 1 second, but it was still OK.
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Post by ellenoir on Jul 30, 2017 18:01:21 GMT
Hi, I'm beginners at accoustic room, but I just want to share. Interesting topic about cable. For me and my ears, Yes.
Its just not about metal and electron. But its about design. Design in capacitance, inductance. I did comparison, with abx. In same room, same source, preamp and amp, just different speakers cable. I have xlo cable and eichmann express four, cardas quadlink speakers cable. Xlo stranded small wire tend to high pass. Eichmann in straight and solid copper wire tend to balance.
The same comparison with RCAs, did comparison between, vandenhull carbon, cardas quadlink, audience au24, siltech. Different sound characteristics, Yes.
And funny things is, why some cable are very thick like acousticzen, but audience au24 is very thin. It give a different result in noise rejection. I can't use thin audience RCAs at high building. There was radio noise sound from my speaker. But thick RCA is very good at high building sound room. But at low level sound room, do thick better than thin?
So for me cables have its own sound characteristics. But one cable better than another? Expensive better than cheaper? Absolutely No. I have to mix and match. Because I don't use eq for sound room.
And the most important just borrow cable from anyone, friend, suppliers, anyone. Put in your system, not showroom. Compare, listen and make our own decisions. And don't listen to sales. Just borrow and listen, if you think it is worth, buy. If don't, leave it.
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Post by arnyk on Aug 1, 2017 12:43:04 GMT
Hi, I'm beginners at accoustic room, but I just want to share. Interesting topic about cable. For me and my ears, Yes. Its just not about metal and electron. But its about design. Design in capacitance, inductance. I did comparison, with abx. In same room, same source, preamp and amp, just different speakers cable. I have xlo cable and eichmann express four, cardas quadlink speakers cable. Xlo stranded small wire tend to high pass. Eichmann in straight and solid copper wire tend to balance. The same comparison with RCAs, did comparison between, vandenhull carbon, cardas quadlink, audience au24, siltech. Different sound characteristics, Yes. And funny things is, why some cable are very thick like acousticzen, but audience au24 is very thin. It give a different result in noise rejection. I can't use thin audience RCAs at high building. There was radio noise sound from my speaker. But thick RCA is very good at high building sound room. But at low level sound room, do thick better than thin? So for me cables have its own sound characteristics. But one cable better than another? Expensive better than cheaper? Absolutely No. I have to mix and match. Because I don't use eq for sound room. And the most important just borrow cable from anyone, friend, suppliers, anyone. Put in your system, not showroom. Compare, listen and make our own decisions. And don't listen to sales. Just borrow and listen, if you think it is worth, buy. If don't, leave it. ABXing cables has some pitfalls. Could you explain in detail how you compared the cables?
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Post by ellenoir on Aug 1, 2017 17:11:43 GMT
Hi, I'm beginners at accoustic room, but I just want to share. Interesting topic about cable. For me and my ears, Yes. Its just not about metal and electron. But its about design. Design in capacitance, inductance. I did comparison, with abx. In same room, same source, preamp and amp, just different speakers cable. I have xlo cable and eichmann express four, cardas quadlink speakers cable. Xlo stranded small wire tend to high pass. Eichmann in straight and solid copper wire tend to balance. The same comparison with RCAs, did comparison between, vandenhull carbon, cardas quadlink, audience au24, siltech. Different sound characteristics, Yes. And funny things is, why some cable are very thick like acousticzen, but audience au24 is very thin. It give a different result in noise rejection. I can't use thin audience RCAs at high building. There was radio noise sound from my speaker. But thick RCA is very good at high building sound room. But at low level sound room, do thick better than thin? So for me cables have its own sound characteristics. But one cable better than another? Expensive better than cheaper? Absolutely No. I have to mix and match. Because I don't use eq for sound room. And the most important just borrow cable from anyone, friend, suppliers, anyone. Put in your system, not showroom. Compare, listen and make our own decisions. And don't listen to sales. Just borrow and listen, if you think it is worth, buy. If don't, leave it. ABXing cables has some pitfalls. Could you explain in detail how you compared the cables? I try my best to abxing those cable. Both use banana plug. Xlo 2.5meters while eichmann 5 meters. I use those cable for at least 6 months. I leave all my equipment on while changing speaker cables. Stop musics then I change cable by unplug and plug other cable pair as fast as possible, between 40 seconds and repeat the same songs. Me and my friends (total 3 of us, no one from us was pro audio, one of us was iasca car audio judge contest, i was retired from car audio installer and was guitaris. begin in home audio just 2 years ago, my other friend as beginner) had changing positions for listening and changing cables. Try 3 times for a song. And 3 times for next song. Total 3 songs. Listen each song only for 30 seconds in same section. We did less 2 hours. We evaluate for tonal balance, stage width, depth, pinpoint imaging, clarity only. With score 0-5. We use dali cd 3 track number 4 and 5 wav files. And we use hdtracks 2017 hires sampler track number 1. I use sony laptop, mxdac, coda fet02 preamp, and classe seventy amp. I built my own 2 way bookshelf speakers using esotar t330da and seas excel w15cy001. I did passive crossover with my ex iasca judge friend for a year and half. All cables except speakers cable never change within abxing. I didn't use a abx box or switch. Because I don't have it. I didn't keep the score charts, just remember those discussions, while me and ex judges can hear all aspect differences. But my beginner friend just only can say hear no staging differences, can't write a score either, but hear a differences in high and low frequency level without ability to explain. We do it for fun, so there was no pressure, and I knew serious level was not maximum also. But we did serious test. And we did a lot of comparison, some of them were serious, some of them just for fun, we do test opamps, cables, passive component. Passive components are the most interesting test because we can use selector. Tiny passive parts, same value, only material differences, and different result. But we never used measurements tools for any comparison test, except opamp test. Some of very expensive things are jokes, but some of them have really good quality. Cheers.
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