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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 16:51:06 GMT
Hi There! Would anybody here be able to give me some tips on treating my basement to make it apt for recording acoustic guitar/vocals? I am not mixing so this will be only a live room for this single purpose. I have read a ton of books and threads on the internet and have a basic understanding of acoustics and treatment options but most the info I have found relates to control rooms. My main question at this point is: "how can I make this room good (or even amazing) sounding for recording?"
here are the dimensions: 12.5m X 5m X 3m(ceiling) 41ft X 16ft X 10ft
The walls and ceiling are concrete and the floor is tiled. I don't really have a budget in mind because I will be doing this bit by bit so if it costs more I may just take longer. I need the room to sound good above all else, even if it takes a while to finish it.
They say that symmetry is not good sounding when it comes to live rooms. Is this true? Should I create inner splayed wall of some kind. Should I completely trap the ceiling with a nice thick layer of low density treatment to try minimize my floor to ceiling modes? Should I completely deaden the ceiling and walls and then use diffusers or slats?
Thanks and look forward to reading your comments and ideas.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 21:48:54 GMT
I assume you want/need GOOD isolation(essential to really good tracking room). That is achieved by room in a room.
You're dimensions and room volume are imo good, would be pleased myself with that size live room.
I would start building room in a room and do "integrated" acoustics right at start(angled walls etc), like "real" studios are built. So you can be happy with that room always and dont wanna re-do things. (more money, more time spent.)
So yes, you gonna have to do new inner walls and ceiling.
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Post by rock on Feb 16, 2018 23:03:41 GMT
Isolation is a good thing but... do you really need it? That would be a pretty big expense to properly isolate a room that size not to mention that you'll loose spcae. Of course if you do build new interior walls, you can splay them to eliminate flutter echoes. Actually, those dimensions seem on the long and narrow side of things and possibly more of a LEDE (live end dead end) approach might suit the space better and at the same time give you more flexibility. For the live end QRDs would be a good choice.
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 17, 2018 1:22:49 GMT
Have you seen this: youtu.be/ZSX14geMw-c?t=12m10sI'm not an expert, indeed nary a novice, on live rooms. I will share my intuition, though. Your room isn't quite as big as you might think. Getting jiggy with splayed walls will reduce your volume and boundary distance. As it stands, your rear wall is not >3x your width which is good. However, if you make it any more narrow then you run that risk. My impression is to begin making recordings now and check the results. This includes acoustic measurements in addition to music and speech recordings. Based on your requirements: drums, vocals, chamber ensemble, etc. you can add treatment as necessary. I think checkered absorption, diffusion, and, if you'll be recording bass instruments, at least one length side very thick absorption (i.e. several feet). Also remember to factor in moveable panels for inter-instrument isolation and more control for things like guitar amps. Simplicity is best, I find. Decide what kind of projects you want to record and proceed accordingly. Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 16:55:52 GMT
I assume you want/need GOOD isolation(essential to really good tracking room). That is achieved by room in a room. You're dimensions and room volume are imo good, would be pleased myself with that size live room. I would start building room in a room and do "integrated" acoustics right at start(angled walls etc), like "real" studios are built. So you can be happy with that room always and dont wanna re-do things. (more money, more time spent.) So yes, you gonna have to do new inner walls and ceiling. Hi and thanks for getting back to me. Luckily, I don't require isolation because I am in a remote area and it is very quiet. I am just seeking advice on the "treatment" part so having said this, what advice can you give me?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 17:00:37 GMT
Isolation is a good thing but... do you really need it? That would be a pretty big expense to properly isolate a room that size not to mention that you'll loose spcae. Of course if you do build new interior walls, you can splay them to eliminate flutter echoes. Actually, those dimensions seem on the long and narrow side of things and possibly more of a LEDE (live end dead end) approach might suit the space better and at the same time give you more flexibility. For the live end QRDs would be a good choice. Hello! It is a big expense and luckily I won't be needing to isolate the room. I didn't understand what you meant by LEDE. Do you mean have half the room dead and the other half live?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 17:05:12 GMT
Have you seen this: youtu.be/ZSX14geMw-c?t=12m10sI'm not an expert, indeed nary a novice, on live rooms. I will share my intuition, though. Your room isn't quite as big as you might think. Getting jiggy with splayed walls will reduce your volume and boundary distance. As it stands, your rear wall is not >3x your width which is good. However, if you make it any more narrow then you run that risk. My impression is to begin making recordings now and check the results. This includes acoustic measurements in addition to music and speech recordings. Based on your requirements: drums, vocals, chamber ensemble, etc. you can add treatment as necessary. I think checkered absorption, diffusion, and, if you'll be recording bass instruments, at least one length side very thick absorption (i.e. several feet). Also remember to factor in moveable panels for inter-instrument isolation and more control for things like guitar amps. Simplicity is best, I find. Decide what kind of projects you want to record and proceed accordingly. Thanks. Hi there. Thanks for your advice. Just to correct one thing though: I don't need to record drums, vocals or chamber ensembles etc. Only Guitar and vocals. Do you think splayed walls are worth building if I don't isolate the room? Also, regarding what you said about having one "length side" thick absorption, do you not think the ceiling should be fully absorptive too since it is only 10ft high?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 17:14:11 GMT
If its only treatment, you gonna need VERY MUCH bass trapping everywhere. I would maybe do just wood slatted traps. Even if you dont need isolation i would still do new fake ceiling that acts as a giant bass trap, also kills other reflections. You could leave hard flooring and dont use carpets at all(atleast i wouldn't). Its hard to say what you exactly need, unless you do measurements. Download REW measurement software and start measuring the room. Its so much easier to do when you know what you have to do .
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 18, 2018 1:33:52 GMT
Have you seen this: youtu.be/ZSX14geMw-c?t=12m10sI'm not an expert, indeed nary a novice, on live rooms. I will share my intuition, though. Your room isn't quite as big as you might think. Getting jiggy with splayed walls will reduce your volume and boundary distance. As it stands, your rear wall is not >3x your width which is good. However, if you make it any more narrow then you run that risk. My impression is to begin making recordings now and check the results. This includes acoustic measurements in addition to music and speech recordings. Based on your requirements: drums, vocals, chamber ensemble, etc. you can add treatment as necessary. I think checkered absorption, diffusion, and, if you'll be recording bass instruments, at least one length side very thick absorption (i.e. several feet). Also remember to factor in moveable panels for inter-instrument isolation and more control for things like guitar amps. Simplicity is best, I find. Decide what kind of projects you want to record and proceed accordingly. Thanks. Hi there. Thanks for your advice. Just to correct one thing though: I don't need to record drums, vocals or chamber ensembles etc. Only Guitar and vocals. Do you think splayed walls are worth building if I don't isolate the room? Also, regarding what you said about having one "length side" thick absorption, do you not think the ceiling should be fully absorptive too since it is only 10ft high? Guitar and vocals are no problem. No need for extensive bass treatment. The low frequency extension of those instruments can be handled by conventional treatment. That holds especially true if you plan to use a high pass filter upon recording or mixing. The thing about a 'great sounding live room' is that it needs space to breathe. While there are multiple theories about it, I remember Ethan's rule of thumb for diffusion is 1' recording distance per inch of diffusion. I haven't memorized diffuser function tables but many tend to be around 4" in depth. That means 8' of your width is unusable for 'great sound'. Even so, your room will still have modal problems which will mess up your targeted frequency range. For this, you'll need a fair amount of absorption. This leads me to advise you to just set up an absorbent corner and use that as your spot. For sure you can use diffusion. Done correctly, and in conjunction with absorption, it will minimize boundary interference, contribute to a more spacious and large sound, and complement your controlled absorption efforts. Regarding treating your ceiling, that would probably give you the best result. Whether it needs to be 100% absorbent is up to your targets, budget, and whether you want to employ diffusion or not. You need to prioritize. Like I said, set up a heavily absorbent corner into which you'll record. Guitar amps can be completely surrounded by absorption so long as they're in a reasonably-sized space, such as yours. The rest of the room will hold the rest of the modal treatment in addition to any diffusion. In summary, just prioritize for a good recording spot and let the rest of the room support that. Especially because your needs are so columbid (pigeon or dove-like. Noble yet common). Diffusion optional.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 8:10:26 GMT
If its only treatment, you gonna need VERY MUCH bass trapping everywhere. I would maybe do just wood slatted traps. Even if you dont need isolation i would still do new fake ceiling that acts as a giant bass trap, also kills other reflections. You could leave hard flooring and dont use carpets at all(atleast i wouldn't). Its hard to say what you exactly need, unless you do measurements. Download REW measurement software and start measuring the room. Its so much easier to do when you know what you have to do . Ok! I will do the measurements and post back. By wood slatted traps are you talking about frequency specific ones like a slat resonator?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 8:23:00 GMT
Hi there. Thanks for your advice. Just to correct one thing though: I don't need to record drums, vocals or chamber ensembles etc. Only Guitar and vocals. Do you think splayed walls are worth building if I don't isolate the room? Also, regarding what you said about having one "length side" thick absorption, do you not think the ceiling should be fully absorptive too since it is only 10ft high? Guitar and vocals are no problem. No need for extensive bass treatment. The low frequency extension of those instruments can be handled by conventional treatment. That holds especially true if you plan to use a high pass filter upon recording or mixing. The thing about a 'great sounding live room' is that it needs space to breathe. While there are multiple theories about it, I remember Ethan's rule of thumb for diffusion is 1' recording distance per inch of diffusion. I haven't memorized diffuser function tables but many tend to be around 4" in depth. That means 8' of your width is unusable for 'great sound'. Even so, your room will still have modal problems which will mess up your targeted frequency range. For this, you'll need a fair amount of absorption. This leads me to advise you to just set up an absorbent corner and use that as your spot. For sure you can use diffusion. Done correctly, and in conjunction with absorption, it will minimize boundary interference, contribute to a more spacious and large sound, and complement your controlled absorption efforts. Regarding treating your ceiling, that would probably give you the best result. Whether it needs to be 100% absorbent is up to your targets, budget, and whether you want to employ diffusion or not. You need to prioritize. Like I said, set up a heavily absorbent corner into which you'll record. Guitar amps can be completely surrounded by absorption so long as they're in a reasonably-sized space, such as yours. The rest of the room will hold the rest of the modal treatment in addition to any diffusion. In summary, just prioritize for a good recording spot and let the rest of the room support that. Especially because your needs are so columbid (pigeon or dove-like. Noble yet common). Diffusion optional. Say I have a budget for the fully absorbent ceiling and walls. Would you recommend this if I could install wooden slats or diffusers in key locations to bring some reverb back into the room?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 9:37:42 GMT
If its only treatment, you gonna need VERY MUCH bass trapping everywhere. I would maybe do just wood slatted traps. Even if you dont need isolation i would still do new fake ceiling that acts as a giant bass trap, also kills other reflections. You could leave hard flooring and dont use carpets at all(atleast i wouldn't). Its hard to say what you exactly need, unless you do measurements. Download REW measurement software and start measuring the room. Its so much easier to do when you know what you have to do . Ok! I will do the measurements and post back. By wood slatted traps are you talking about frequency specific ones like a slat resonator? I was just talking about putting random sized wood slats on absorber. If you do measurements and have a specific problem area you can then try to do slat resonators, but they're just a tad harder to build.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 13:32:01 GMT
Ok! I will do the measurements and post back. By wood slatted traps are you talking about frequency specific ones like a slat resonator? I was just talking about putting random sized wood slats on absorber. If you do measurements and have a specific problem area you can then try to do slat resonators, but they're just a tad harder to build. Ah ok, yeah they are harder to build for sure maybe just random slats would be good. There are some famous sequences for those slats, have you heard of any good ones or do you reckon random is fine?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 15:42:10 GMT
I was just talking about putting random sized wood slats on absorber. If you do measurements and have a specific problem area you can then try to do slat resonators, but they're just a tad harder to build. Ah ok, yeah they are harder to build for sure maybe just random slats would be good. There are some famous sequences for those slats, have you heard of any good ones or do you reckon random is fine? I dont know for sure, i have something like 70/30 in my mind(70slats30absorbsion), might be totally wrong. When i did slatting for my panels i just went totally random, didn't overthink it. If you do slat resonator, then you have to be more precise and do calculations. It's very sensitive to get it work just right.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 17:32:10 GMT
Ah ok, yeah they are harder to build for sure maybe just random slats would be good. There are some famous sequences for those slats, have you heard of any good ones or do you reckon random is fine? I dont know for sure, i have something like 70/30 in my mind(70slats30absorbsion), might be totally wrong. When i did slatting for my panels i just went totally random, didn't overthink it. If you do slat resonator, then you have to be more precise and do calculations. It's very sensitive to get it work just right. Thanks. I have a calculation in Rod Gervais book but I am not sure how I will be able to find the density of the wood I would use and as you say it is very sensitive
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