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Post by mattscarlett on Dec 5, 2018 21:11:23 GMT
I just thought I'd throw this in for a facepalm inducing laugh.
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Post by Hexspa on Dec 6, 2018 5:51:01 GMT
Is there any truth to this whatsoever? Does vibration really affect DACS?
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Post by Michael Lawrence on Dec 6, 2018 21:57:11 GMT
No.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 22:57:51 GMT
But probably good for them sliding off the rack!
Just hard to believe they would make anything like a DAC sound better? How? No?
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Post by Hexspa on Dec 7, 2018 8:28:52 GMT
All those heavy speaker wires pulling the dac down like a skirt on a college freshman. Probably cost an arm and a leg.
When will it end?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 11:40:03 GMT
Never. People want to spend a lot of money, to feel good about their systems. It does makes a difference to them, cause they believe it.
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Post by Michael Lawrence on Dec 7, 2018 16:17:55 GMT
Let's have some science. There is a possibility in older tube devices for mechanical impact and vibration to cause electronic noise. (We've all moved a guitar amp and heard the crazy sound the reverb springs make when you bump them. The idea is similar.) It was an actual problem with tube circuits. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicrophonicsI'm not an expert on this but it seems that it was generally a trait of cheaper / poorly designed tube circuits. And pretty much we're talking about preamplifiers and amplifiers here, where small noises can become big noises when we're dealing with 30+ dB of gain. Modern solid state gear, it's pretty much a non-issue unless the designer was horribly incompetent. From Douglas Self's "Audio Power Amplifier Design" sixth edition: "Microphony is essentially something that happens in sensitive valve preamplifiers. If it happens in solid-state power amplifiers, the level is so far below the noise it is effectively non-existent. Experiments on this sort of thing are rare (if not unheard of) and so I offer the only scrap of evidence I have. Take a microphone pre-amp operating at a gain of +70 dB, and tap the input capacitors sharply with a screwdriver' the preamp output will be a dull thump, and low level. The physical impact on the electrolytics (the only components that show this effect) is hugely greater than that of any acoustic vibration"
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Post by mattscarlett on Dec 10, 2018 14:42:12 GMT
Let me just say that I'm really outspoken and not at all subtle, but my aim here wasn't to embarrassed anyone. I genuinely thought it was funny. However I've been thinking about my very first post on this forum, and began to think; is there ever an occasion where measurements don't show the whole picture? the-audio-expert.freeforums.net/thread/520/subjectivity-graphs?page=1&scrollTo=4712Measurements may show what's going on with the equipment, but does it show how said measurements are being absorbed ... meaning via our subjective measuring tools or 'Ears' as I should really call them! So when someone makes such a claim, does it mean they're wrong? (just putting it out there)
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Post by Michael Lawrence on Dec 10, 2018 15:56:11 GMT
Don't make the mistake of confusing a measurement and an opinion. A measurement is just data. It's not "right" or "wrong." We take a measurement when we want to answer a question. Depending on what question we're trying to answer, we'll use a different measurement. So the only reactions we have are generally that, yes, the measurement confirms what we thought, or no, it doesn't, and we need to find out why things are different than we thought they might be. (Edit: This is because a good strategy before taking any measurement is to have some idea of what you expect as a result. If the actual result doesn't match what you expected, you're far more likely to catch an error far earlier on in the process.) As such there's no "perfect" measurement. A flat line on a screen isn't perfect, and a flat system rarely sounds good for music playback. As an example of that, I recently did a club sound system install and right out of the gate it measured pretty darn flat: Most would say "perfect! the analyzer says so" and walk away at this point. But there's nothing perfect about it. The analyzer isn't telling me to pack it up and go home. It's just telling me what the response looks like at these positions. The club has a lot of events where recorded music is played back over the system, and this curve would leave those tracks sounding unsupported. So I tilted it: And all of a sudden the playback sounds like it should. The well-overlaid traces taken in different audience areas show that the audience hears the same show regardless of where they're standing. This low variance is far more important than the absolute tonal curve of the system, but that's a different article. So the measurements are just a way of helping us confirm what we're hearing, nothing more. Once you have a system sounding the way you like, measure it and use that as a reference curve in the future. That's what the big rock concert system techs do! As for the question of whether all audio parameters are known, that is addressed in Ethan's Null Tester video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyWt3kANA3Q&feature=youtu.be
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Post by mattscarlett on Dec 11, 2018 2:20:04 GMT
What i'm hearing from Ethan is the opposite, that Measurements are the leading factor and that opinion is somewhat benign, hence this is why I keep on pressing the issue. Why would he have gone to such lengths in building the Null Tester in the first place, if he believed a simple notion of cable bringing their own sound characteristics etc. soundcloud.com/sqology/feat-ethan-winer
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Post by Michael Lawrence on Dec 11, 2018 3:51:27 GMT
Measurements are the leading factor Leading factor in what? Can you give me a specific example or situation that illustrates your point? I guess I'm not clear. Ethan's making a different point than I am. He's saying that our hearing is extremely fallible, and we can't rely on it as an objective measure of truth or fact, simply because it's very easy for us to get fooled. We've all adjusted an EQ till the problem was fixed, and then realized we've been adjusting the wrong channel. We hear a difference even though there wasn't one. Same with thinking a certain cable sounds better, or that it sounds better when the direction is reversed or something equally absurd. So we need to rely on something more objective than what we think we heard, and a measurement provides data to give us some indication of whether or not there was really a difference. I'm saying the same thing, that measurement data helps provide me with objective data on which to base my (technical, not artistic) decisions. So I don't see any contradiction there.
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Post by Ethan Winer on Dec 11, 2018 16:13:55 GMT
I can add a little:
About tube microphonics, yes this is real. When troubleshooting a tube circuit it's common to tap each tube with a pencil to see if it makes noise. If the tube is microphonic it can possibly affect the sound when playing music. But in practice, what vibrates the tube to make that noise is sound waves in the air. The mass of the amplifier chassis, and whatever table or other surface it rests on, is more than enough to keep sound waves from vibrating the tubes mechanically through that path.
As for measuring versus opinion, both are valid. For audio gear you definitely want a flat response. But for the sound as reproduced in a venue, or a home theater or listening room, it's common to tilt the response as Michael showed to make the sound more subjectively pleasing. This is called a house curve, and it's a surprisingly complex issue! It's not only a matter of taste, but it also depends the size of the room. Sort of the same way acceptable reverb times depends on room size. A complete discussion of house curves spans nearly three pages in my Audio Expert book. Otherwise I'd post it here.
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Post by Ethan Winer on Dec 12, 2018 18:28:17 GMT
I had another thought about measuring not always being best. Though this is kinda pushing the point. It's common when programming MIDI drums (and other instruments) to push the beat ahead, or pull back a little. So if you "measure" the start times of each note keeping them always exactly on the grid of a piano roll, musically that might sound subjectively worse.
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Post by Hexspa on Dec 13, 2018 16:17:01 GMT
I concur that measuring is not always best. For instance, my abdomen. Measuring it, strangely, induces an anxiety which causes me to whimper, moan and seek the comfort which can only be found at the bottom of every Ben & Jerry's pint. In converse, when I remain oblivious to the exact metrics, my mood remains elevated.
We should shut this whole forum down, start wearing berets, and get a group subscription to Audiophile magazine.
It's time for the revolution.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2018 20:00:56 GMT
I concur that measuring is not always best. For instance, my abdomen. Measuring it, strangely, induces an anxiety which causes me to whimper, moan and seek the comfort which can only be found at the bottom of every Ben & Jerry's pint. In converse, when I remain oblivious to the exact metrics, my mood remains elevated. We should shut this whole forum down, start wearing berets, and get a group subscription to Audiophile magazine. It's time for the revolution. haha! Let's do it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8qcccZy03s
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