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Post by protools1 on Jan 28, 2019 6:49:38 GMT
Hi All. I am somewhat new to this so excuse my limited knowledge. Before I do any acoustical treatment. Room size L28.5xW19.5xH10 (inches) Outcome: Create semi-professional control room with good balanced sound Current Situation: Room with 3 solid (mason brick walls), 1 Soft semi transparent plastic/metal divider. Ceiling consists of basic office type "semi-acoustical tile". Floor is concrete with a vinyl tile (9x9) Question. What would be the optima way to place desk with speakers?
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Post by Hexspa on Jan 28, 2019 14:22:36 GMT
Welcome. Surely your space isn't actually 10 inches high. In any case, have you read the stickies? I'm pretty sure that Ethan talks about room layout in his articles.
Almost all rectangular rooms, barring some extreme anomaly, need to be oriented lengthwise.
Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 20:17:15 GMT
Your space is pretty big, so i would try both positions; facing the long wall and facing the short wall. Take measurements and see which one has better bass response. If you really want to get the best out of your room, you really have to try every possible combination!
One suggestions with desk placement, put your speakers some distance behind the desk. (to minimize ER) If possible try to keep the desk area to minimum. (Again to minimize ER)
To me ER from a desk sounds really bad, way worse than what you get from sidewalls, floor or ceiling. Even in a small room.
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Post by Hexspa on Jan 28, 2019 20:23:30 GMT
Pasim has good advice but I don't think you should try every 'possible' combination. Start with the fundamental guidelines and then maybe try one or two alternatives if you aren't satisfied. 38% from the front, lengthwise, is your starting point. In practice, your best spot might be a foot or so front or back from there. I recommend a 'talk test' where you simply speak at that point then move around until your voice sounds most natural to you.
Once you've found that, you'll have a solid reference point to which you can compare other points.
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Post by protools1 on Jan 29, 2019 4:32:13 GMT
Thank you for your responses. Partial issue that i was facing is with the room to be used for control and live room all in one. and since side (longer wall) was very thin just a simple classroom diver. Did I mention its for a school one of their classrooms to turn into a studio without any capital built out. Not my first choice. So anyway i was thinking position desk to by the weakest wall as not to have to worry about the sound travel there.
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Post by Hexspa on Jan 29, 2019 18:20:01 GMT
Thank you for your responses. Partial issue that i was facing is with the room to be used for control and live room all in one. and since side (longer wall) was very thin just a simple classroom diver. Did I mention its for a school one of their classrooms to turn into a studio without any capital built out. Not my first choice. So anyway i was thinking position desk to by the weakest wall as not to have to worry about the sound travel there. Do you have any pics of this space, pt? I'd like to see them before offering any more advice. Thanks.
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Post by protools1 on Jan 31, 2019 19:59:53 GMT
i attached 3 to original message because thats the max Thanks Attachments:
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 1, 2019 13:46:43 GMT
Ok, I think I see this vinyl divider. That's the side wall that's not brick, right? Actually, that may help you. Since this is a mixed use room and you don't have full control over it as it's a school's property, I'd say face the green rear wall. If this was my space, I'd probably face the door - better feng shui - but since you're going to be loading equipment in and out you'll need that space clear. Your main question was where to place the desk and speakers and my answer is to start with that orientation with your listening position at 38% the length of the room. If for some reason that's not tenable then you can adjust; always try to start with the theoretical optimum. Reasons you might need to move this point are: the acoustics aren't actually best there, it's too far out into the room & other logistical or taste-based reasons. Just try to get the best balance you can between acoustic response and room usability. As far as the thin wall goes, more than likely, it's still mostly reflective above 100Hz. That means it shouldn't compromise your stereo imaging. However, it may help as it'll let lower frequencies pass through and that will probably help you get quicker decay times there. Whether the actual modal response will be better or worse, only measuring can tell.
One advantage you do have is that this room looks pretty spacious. That means your early reflections won't be as strong. The problem is that most of your surfaces are super hard and dense which means less forgiveness in terms of said reflections and standing waves. Another issue which may pop up is that your room's height is nearly exactly half of the width. This can cause a bunching up of your modes and result in strong peaks in your response. I did note that this is a drop ceiling and that side wall isn't as dense so, again, surface reflectiveness will be a factor.
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Post by protools1 on Feb 6, 2019 9:03:29 GMT
Ok, I think I see this vinyl divider. That's the side wall that's not brick, right? Actually, that may help you.
Thanks, i really appreciate the input as this is very awkward situation, I keep thinking my plan was to build it out and now that disappear since the school don't want to do it at this point. I know i shouln't look back . Was already thinking facing the door but as you pointed out there maybe issues with getting in and out smoothly. Are you suggesting to put the desk about 10 feet into the room (closer to the door) and have "live" room in front? That raises questions: Would i have to surround the desk with acoustical gobos/absorbers -diffusers --still behind the chairs and the desk on the wall by the door? I was actually thinking place the desk by the front wall looking into it and then the "LIVE Space" would be behind the desk closer to the door now....hmm With ceiling will have to hang some kind of cloud above the desk and probably around the whole area of live room..Not sure how
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 6, 2019 21:48:41 GMT
You don't necessarily need absorbers on surfaces which are >10' from your speakers or listening position to create a Reflection Free Zone. It'll help but the whole point of RFZ panels is to make a safe zone where your pristine direct signal doesn't get bullied by the big bad first reflections within the first 20ms or so. Actually, I just made a video which includes this topic here.
The caveat to this is if your speakers are within about 10' from a large boundary like a wall. It just depends on how low your speakers are speaking. In that case, you'll use surface treatment to minimize boundary interference. Also, you'll use absorbers to dial in your modal response. Actually, for almost any statement I can make, there's a caveat. When it doubt, put an absorber there.
This is the layout I propose. Feel free to flip it and reverse it as needed. Just bear in mind that if you sit 38% to the rear (facing into the room), it probably won't be as good.
One more detail is the triangle guide for the speakers. Some people say put your head directly at the apex of your speakers, some say aim your speakers 16" behind your head. I do the latter but I'm honestly not sure whether it helps.
I guess I can add that nearfields are probably better off near your ears. In my previous room, I had them at distances in accordance with the Grammy whitepaper that floats around here - 6.5-7.5'. Maybe it's because my engineering skills have improved or because I have otherwise set this room up better but my speakers are now about 2.75' from me and my audio results don't seem worse overall. In short, just put your speakers where you get the best SPL and is most convenient rather than chasing some published standard. Maintain symmetry, of course.
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Post by protools1 on Feb 8, 2019 16:08:08 GMT
You don't necessarily need absorbers on surfaces which are >10' from your speakers or listening position to create a Reflection Free Zone. It'll help but the whole point of RFZ panels is to make a safe zone where your pristine direct signal doesn't get bullied by the big bad first reflections within the first 20ms or so. Actually, I just made a video which includes this topic here.
The caveat to this is if your speakers are within about 10' from a large boundary like a wall. It just depends on how low your speakers are speaking. In that case, you'll use surface treatment to minimize boundary interference. Also, you'll use absorbers to dial in your modal response. Actually, for almost any statement I can make, there's a caveat. When it doubt, put an absorber there.
This is the layout I propose. Feel free to flip it and reverse it as needed. Just bear in mind that if you sit 38% to the rear (facing into the room), it probably won't be as good.
One more detail is the triangle guide for the speakers. Some people say put your head directly at the apex of your speakers, some say aim your speakers 16" behind your head. I do the latter but I'm honestly not sure whether it helps.
I guess I can add that nearfields are probably better off near your ears. In my previous room, I had them at distances in accordance with the Grammy whitepaper that floats around here - 6.5-7.5'. Maybe it's because my engineering skills have improved or because I have otherwise set this room up better but my speakers are now about 2.75' from me and my audio results don't seem worse overall. In short, just put your speakers where you get the best SPL and is most convenient rather than chasing some published standard. Maintain symmetry, of course.
HI Michael-Hexspa. very cool video very informative would be nice to actually see what your pointing at Thanks for taking the time for drawing it makes a lot more sense from your perspective. Since the from left and back walls are all made of cement and left is just a panel. do you think any reflection coming would be uneven. The ceiling is just office tile and floor is solid cement with vinyl tile On the other hand nowadays everyone wants lots of solid sub bass. With the room 20 feet wide almost 30 feet long and 11 feet in height... the desk would probably be 6-7 feet. What would be a good way to achieve maximum amount of solid lows it that position. Would a cloud above help or do anything for that ? How think of bass traps in the corners make sense, i don;t know but always coming back to that left divider wall Thanks Attachments:
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 9, 2019 0:32:31 GMT
It depends on the acoustic properties of the vinyl wall. I'm not able to say precisely what kind of reflectiveness it has - to what frequency and what degree. I guess it won't affect your stereo imaging much but what can you do?
You'll get plenty of bass in that room so long as you have speakers which reproduce it. The question is of decay and SPL targets. I could just tell you to put 2' of fluffy insulation everywhere and you'll probably be fine. It's up to your situation as to whether you can manage that or not.
It's best if you put speakers in there and start taking measurements and assessing the place both objectively and subjectively. That will inform your course of action. Thanks.
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Post by protools1 on Feb 11, 2019 6:04:02 GMT
It depends on the acoustic properties of the vinyl wall. I'm not able to say precisely what kind of reflectiveness it has - to what frequency and what degree. I guess it won't affect your stereo imaging much but what can you do? -------------------- Thanks again for your great responses. I running out of time a bit before i need to put orders to vendors for insulation. I am thinking Yamaha HS8 with the sub and for Mains JBL PA system Is 703 the only option and when you say fluffy insulation are you referring other then 703 just regular pink stuff? Would it make sense to start with 4 corner bass traps, put absorbers on most of the walls and have a cloud ceiling about the desk, drum set up and vocal set ups. kinda dividing room into 3 main area?? thanks
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 15, 2019 6:54:49 GMT
703 is Owens Corning rigid fiberglass, not fluffy. Fluffy, as it were, is your typical pink Rxx insulation such as R19 and R38 that you can buy from big box home improvement stores. 703 is far from the only option; it's just one of many good ones. 8lb mineral wool, IIG 1280, is what I use and it's perfect. I use the Yamaha HS50 speakers - they're the old 5" model - with sub. This setup has served me well since around 2011 or so. While I have no immediate plans to upgrade, using HS8 speakers with sub will give you a bit more in the way of placement options when balancing their response with a sub. That being said, it could also potentially give you more trouble. In short, you want to balance your peaks and nulls among the three speakers to get the most even SPL. As far as treatment quantity is concerned, you have two goals: a listening position and a recording environment but both in the same room. For this reason, I would first establish my listening position then form a Reflection Free Zone around it. From there, I would install 4-8" rigid panels in an alternating pattern around the perimeter to minimize unwanted reflections. Lastly, I would take acoustic measurements from key points in the room - listening position and various recording zones - to determine how much modal treatment I still need. For bass purposes, thick fluffy is probably your best bet. If you can use 2-3' soffits floor-to-ceiling in your vertical corners then you should be off to a good start. Remember that only by analyzing your response can you determine whether you've met your targets or not. I've recently made a video related to this that you might want to watch. Please be advised that I have never directed such a project before and that my guidance is based on a combination of experience and principles. I have a moderately small room in which there is a similar layout: a control position and a singular recording zone. In theory, a similar approach should work for you in your larger space.
If you want to keep it uber-simple then you could opt to put 1-2' fluffy insulation on all your surfaces. That will obviously tackle all your reflection problems as well as have a high probability of tackling your modal issues as well. Remember that it's hard to go overboard with absorption in a small room - <10,000ft3 - since you can always add in diffusion once your acoustic uglies are handled. Your room has a volume of 5557.5ft3 so, despite it being relatively spacious, it's still considered a small room by acoustic standards.
One cool thing you can do, should you decide to go for the 'alternating pattern' method of handling early reflections in your recording space, is put diffusers between your absorbers. While diffusion is comparatively costly, combining it with a healthy dose of absorbers will help you achieve a more open sound in your room. It's up to you whether you want that or not. One thing is for sure, you don't want large flat reflections so just make sure you do something!
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Post by protools1 on Feb 17, 2019 6:27:06 GMT
703 is Owens Corning rigid fiberglass, not fluffy. Fluffy, as it were, is your typical pink Rxx insulation such as R19 and R38 that you can buy from big box home improvement stores. 703 is far from the only option; it's just one of many good ones. 8lb mineral wool, IIG 1280, is what I use and it's perfect.
---thanks Michael. Is 8lb vs 6lb mineral wool make a huge differnce, that stuff is almost as much as 703 but at least i think I can buy it at the hardware store.... also, what do you think about this stuff here, its 8lb www.rockwool.com/products/comfortboard-80/?selectedCat=comfortboard-80-downloadsi figured a cool thing with Sub is I can move it around...i do worry about the room having lots of weird resonance since i wont be able to do much with ceiling, and duckwork which this room have two paths...will definitely try and insulate it if they let me... love your video I watched it the first time and few more already, what is the best way can i establish a zone around the listening position, shall i try and surround the desk with some gobos type? I wish I can cover the whole room with absorption material at least 4 inch thick, i just not sure if its in the budgets since the room is 540 square feet and that rigid stuff like 703 or even mineral wool is pretty expensive, will have to do some measurements and come up with creative solution. Since the listening position would be about 9-10 feet from each wall left to right and from our earlier convo 10 feet to front wall and about 16 to the back wall (considering the desk is about 3-4 feet depth) I can't do any capital construction in that room. I can ask but covering all the walls and ceiling maybe considered as such. I do appreciate the advise and the question would be if I did that do i need to build a frame or is there a way to not and cover it, I guess freestanding comes to mind.
One cool thing you can do, should you decide to go for the 'alternating pattern' method of handling early reflections in your recording space, is put diffusers between your absorbers. While diffusion is comparatively costly, combining it with a healthy dose of absorbers will help you achieve a more open sound in your room. It's up to you whether you want that or not. One thing is for sure, you don't want large flat reflections so just make sure you do something! ---love that idea..maybe i can have school put some book shelves in between absorbers!!!
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