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Post by bodylanguage on Feb 1, 2019 0:08:32 GMT
Hello audio experts, I'm looking for advice on whether to use soffit style bass traps in the four corners of my room or the simple panel traps that cut off the corners. I've attached a map of my studio - apologies for the primitive hand drawing - and am hoping someone can take a look and recommend one of the two aforementioned options. I have room for the soffit traps so that's not an issue, and as you can see from the drawing, up the end of the room where the monitors are positioned, the two corners are cut away so there's actually room for the soffit traps to sit without really taking up any extra space. Alternatively I could use this space for panel traps and just have a nice big air-gap behind the panels. Either way, I just want to know which method would be more effective for absorbing low frequencies. I'll be using Martin Absorb XHD 100mm panels for the panel absorbers (thanks Hexpsa for helping me decide), so I can either buy more of these to use for the panel traps for the corners of the room, or buy some cheaper insulation to make the soffit traps. (I've attached info on the absorption rates of the XHD insulation). The map of the studio has measurements in centimetres and inches. You'll also see that there are two windows which I've labeled 'A' and 'B'. Window A is pretty close to the right monitor, and I'm thinking of covering this window with an absorption panel. Wondering what anyone thinks of this too. Also, I'll be covering as much of the walls in the Martini Absorb XHD as I can, and I'll also cut off the corners where the walls meet the ceiling with panel traps. The last question is whether I should hang an absorption panel from the ceiling, above the monitors. Thanks in advance for any advice! And please let me know if my studio map is confusing. CSR_Martini_Absorb_R4.pdf (238.37 KB)
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 1, 2019 14:03:57 GMT
I had a room similar to this a couple years ago. Those weird little cut outs are not fun, at least for recording in proximity. To the best of my knowledge, more and thicker is most always your best acoustical option. If you can manage 6' thick soffits then, by all means, do it. The only possible downside is you don't subjectively prefer a non-reflective space, or you can't open any doors. In that case, you can add in diffusers in front of your soffits and have the best of both worlds. At the end of the day, it comes down to how much floor space and convenience and money you are willing to give up. Those panels are great but you're still going to need a lot of them. For reference, I have 20 panels similar in specs to yours and 9 4'h super chunks which are essentially half 2' soffits. My room needs all that treatment and just barely falls short of my 20dB decay within 150ms above 50Hz (outdated - only worry above 63Hz) target at one or two frequencies. In reality, I'd love to have double or quadruple the treatment - not just for a great listening position response but also for general room acoustics for recording videos and quality of living. If I was to give you precise advice, I'd say build four floor-to-ceiling 2' FRK soffits for your vertical corners and install 40 of those panels. While placement and FRK optimization will help, you could then place them anywhere and probably not go too far wrong. Should you be unable to manage such a load out then do half and you'll be in a similar boat as I which is fairly seaworthy.
And why? Well, in my experience, panels are nice - particularly for early reflections - but thick fluffy seems better. Honestly, if I could redo my whole room, I'd probably just put 2' thick fluffy panel/soffits everywhere except possibly the ceiling and that's only due to practicality. Thicker panels are going to work to a lower range as well as the higher ranges that panels treat. Panels save space and work perfectly well but, for pummeling down sound, these big ole super chucks really are my rooks.
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Post by rock on Feb 1, 2019 14:32:59 GMT
Hi body,
If you mean soffit to be "solid absorption material filled" vertical traps in the four wall/wall corners VS typical LF panels across the corners, soffits, with much more material may cost significantly more and perform somewhat better. Wall/ceiling corners are a good idea.Wall/floor corners and the entire back wall are good candidates too.
I see you have 2 room dimensions almost exactly the same. That will obviously pose an additional challenge for your bass traps.
Ceiling clouds halfway on a line between the speakers and listening position are good OR cover the entire area. For more LF performance, hang the clouds with a space at least equal the panel thickness. 100cm or more is good for both panel and space. But remember NOT to use FRK type on RFZ absorbers on the wall and ceiling.
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Post by rock on Feb 1, 2019 14:56:52 GMT
Seems I was typing (I'm pretty slow:( while Hexspa was. His advice is obviously more detailed and specific and I agree with his suggestions. In the end, the exact details will probably vary but I think the big point is you can't have too much treatment.
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 2, 2019 2:13:07 GMT
Seems I was typing (I'm pretty slow:( while Hexspa was. His advice is obviously more detailed and specific and I agree with his suggestions. In the end, the exact details will probably vary but I think the big point is you can't have too much treatment. Thanks, rock. If you type slow, does that mean you have more time on your hands?
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Post by rock on Feb 2, 2019 14:20:02 GMT
You are welcome. I think I've pretty much always done just about everything slower than the average person. I don't like to rush things but sometimes external forces demand it and I do attempt to minimize those forces whenever possible. I've never thought about it but now that you mention it, yeah, in general I would say I do have more time on my hands. Thanks, I'll have to give that some thought! Maybe I could be more productive? Maybe the effects of Parkinson's Law have some undetected influence over my workflow? IDK! I guess I'm just plodding along through life. It's not a sprint, it's a Marathon
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 3, 2019 7:19:08 GMT
Rock on
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Post by bodylanguage on Feb 6, 2019 3:57:39 GMT
Ok great, thanks for the info guys! Regarding the soffit traps - can I just clarify the measurements you're talking about Hexspa - when you say build floor to ceiling 2' soffits, do you mean 2 foot wide and 2 foot deep? And is there a design anywhere I can follow - just in terms of materials at least - I'm not sure what kind of insulation to get, how much to stuff into the traps etc. Is the body of the bass trap built out of cardboard? And the FRK on the front of the trap or inside it? Just want to make sure I do this right.
Thanks again!
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 6, 2019 21:22:10 GMT
I've never built soffits. Someone made them from Safe n' Sound inside of a wood frame here.
You can also watch my half-baked presentation on how I made my super chunks here.
My guess is that any frame+absorbent material should be fine.
And, yes, I meant 2' thick but remember that you can always go thicker. That's probably the thickness I'd go with, at least not any thinner.
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Post by bodylanguage on Feb 15, 2019 7:24:37 GMT
So I'm trying to find some cheap insulation to make the soffits with - I just realised how much insulation you actually need to make one of these suckers (and I'm making four) - especially for a floor to ceiling one. We don't have Safe n' Sound here in Australia, but is it just a cheap one you can get at a hardware store? I'm thinking of getting the cheap glasswool insulation we have at Bunnings which is the hardware store chain in Australia. I can't see the acoustic data but they have a range of densities - 14, 17, 20, 24 and 27kg / m3. I get the impression using less dense insulation for the soffits is ok? I'm gonna go 60 cm (2') depth and from floor to ceiling.
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Post by rock on Feb 15, 2019 14:33:10 GMT
If you use rolls or "batts" of "fluffy" fiberglass or glasswool, you might experiment with a couple ideas that I think could work. First, if your installation is permanent, you can save on lumber costs by attaching the framing of your soffit to the existing wall. Second, you can hang lengths of insulation from the ceiling to floor. The trick is finding a way to attach the insulations lengths at the top end. One way is to "clamp" them between 2x4's and in turn, attach the 2x4's to the ceiling and/or top of the wall. You will loose a few inches of insulation at the top but it's probably too little to worry about. Doing this will eliminate the need to support the insulation with wires like Hexspa shows in his video. For the outer lengths facing the room, use paper or foil faced insulation, but only on the out sides facing into the room.
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Post by bodylanguage on Feb 17, 2019 5:42:44 GMT
Ok thanks Rock! One more thing - is there a density that you recommend for the fluffy insulation?
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Post by rock on Feb 18, 2019 4:55:52 GMT
No, if your soffits are 2' deep and wide, I'm not sure higher density will gain you much if anything. Oh and I didn't mention before but with paper or foil facing, you can staple the edges the the framing to hold them in place.
I should run this by Ethan just to be sure but I think if you staple the paper or foil on the back (wall side) of your soffit you should be fine. The reason we don't want paper or foil on the backs of "moveable" panels is because we often recommend these be spaced off the wall with a gap. If there is paper or foil on the backs of the panels, this will defeat the LF enhancement spacing provides.
One thing for sure, you don't want layers of paper or foil in between all your fluffy.
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Post by bodylanguage on Feb 18, 2019 6:05:02 GMT
Thanks for the response. If you could check what Ethan thinks that would be great. Basically what I'm trying to decide is whether to build the soffits with cheaper insulation from the hardware store, and use the Martini Absorb XHD that I discussed with Hexspa in a previous post (I also reposted the product info in the original post of this thread) for all the broadband panel absorbers and wall to ceiling corner traps, or whether I should just buy more of the Absorb stuff and not bother with the soffits, and have floor to ceiling panel traps in all four corners of the room. I'm keen to build the soffits if there'll be a noticeable difference in low end absorption, and because I do have space for them, but if the difference is going to be negligible then maybe I'll just go with the panel traps. Thanks Rock!
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Post by rock on Feb 18, 2019 14:18:58 GMT
I believe Ethan checks in on the forum regularly. If he does not chime in soon, maybe someone else will on this question. I'll restate the question...
Q: Is there any adverse effect when installing paper or foil faced fluffy insulation with the facing in contact with the wall? That is, compared to installing un-faced in contact with the wall?
Thanks, Rock
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