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Post by stevenosilence on Mar 10, 2017 8:33:14 GMT
Hello Ethan, Hello guys! May I ask for some help? I'm really new to this thing actually, but I want to learn. So my problem is, I just finished my new live room and I have annoying flutter echo coming from the ceiling (as I hear). The room is 3.5m high, 10 meter long and 8m wide, but I've got angled walls from the middle of the room, so the end of the room is only 7.3m. (I attached a pic about it) I built this room for drum recordings and full band recordings, so I must keep the room live sounding for big drum sounds. I've got some moveable absorber panels in the room to control the decay time, but the flutter echo is still there. I was thinking about using bass traps on the ceiling, but maybe diffusers are the better option for my case. Could you give me some tips what to do? Money is not a problem, so if I have to use QRD diffusers all over the ceiling then I will do that, The point is to kill flutter echo without killing that big room sound.  The floor is gres floor which looks like wood. I was also thinking about slanting wood panels on the ceiling or ceiling clouds. I don't really want to use absorption unless I really have to. I layed down all of my moveable absorption panels on the floor and the echo went away. Help me guys, this room has to sound great Thank you so much for your help and time! Cheers, Steve Attachments:
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Post by Hexspa on Mar 10, 2017 15:19:26 GMT
Assuming there are no modal problems you're looking to solve I don't see why diffusion wouldn't be the solution.
The only other thing to consider about diffusion is how close a source is to it as it can cause some scattering artifacts, from what I understand.
-m
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Post by Ethan Winer on Mar 10, 2017 19:15:23 GMT
I agree with Hex that diffusion can solve your problem, but small amounts of absorption could work too wt hut reducing too much ambience. Flutter echo occurs only between opposing surfaces. So that means both pairs of walls, but not between the floor and angled ceiling. I can't tell if the angled parts of the walls are angled enough to prevent flutter, but surely the parallel parts are a problem. So that's where you need treatment. You have large gobos. What happens if you put the gobos in front of the walls?
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Post by stevenosilence on Mar 11, 2017 21:08:48 GMT
I agree with Hex that diffusion can solve your problem, but small amounts of absorption could work too wt hut reducing too much ambience. Flutter echo occurs only between opposing surfaces. So that means both pairs of walls, but not between the floor and angled ceiling. I can't tell if the angled parts of the walls are angled enough to prevent flutter, but surely the parallel parts are a problem. So that's where you need treatment. You have large gobos. What happens if you put the gobos in front of the walls? Thanks for the help guys, I apperciate it a lot! I put all the gobos around me, tried the clap test and I heard the flutter coming off the ceiling, so the walls are not a problem as I hear, because when I layed down all the panels on the floor the room sounded amazing, the flutter completely went away. I don't want to cover the floor, I prefer to put something up on the ceiling instead. I get that absorption would solve the problem easily, but that would kill the room sound either and I don't want that :/ What type of diffusers should I use in this case? I would like to avoid audible artifacts because of diffusion. I want to keep the room as clean sounding as possible. How many diffusers should I apply? Cover the whole ceiling or use just a few? I can post a clip tomorrow about my flutter problem The closest mics to the diffusers would be the overhead mics (1.5-1.8m) (3.5m total ceiling height) Would diffusion work in this case or just stick to absorption? |
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Post by Hexspa on Mar 11, 2017 21:14:38 GMT
I agree with Hex that diffusion can solve your problem, but small amounts of absorption could work too wt hut reducing too much ambience. Flutter echo occurs only between opposing surfaces. So that means both pairs of walls, but not between the floor and angled ceiling. I can't tell if the angled parts of the walls are angled enough to prevent flutter, but surely the parallel parts are a problem. So that's where you need treatment. You have large gobos. What happens if you put the gobos in front of the walls? Thanks for the help guys, I apperciate it a lot! I put all the gobos around me, tried the clap test and I heard the flutter coming off the ceiling, so the walls are not a problem as I hear, because when I layed down all the panels on the floor the room sounded amazing, the flutter completely went away. I don't want to cover the floor, I prefer to put something up on the ceiling instead. I get that absorption would solve the problem easily, but that would kill the room sound either and I don't want that :/ What type of diffusers should I use in this case? I would like to avoid audible artifacts because of diffusion. I want to keep the room as clean sounding as possible. How many diffusers should I apply? Cover the whole ceiling or use just a few? I can post a clip tomorrow about my flutter problem The closest mics to the diffusers would be the overhead mics (1.5-1.8m) (3.5m total ceiling height) Would diffusion work in this case or just stick to absorption? As I understand it, putting absorption on your ceiling won't have much of a differences than when your gobos were on the floor. You don't need to cover the whole ceiling to control flutter echo but it's up to you. Regarding diffusion, my understanding is that you want one foot of distance for every inch of diffuser depth. The depth of your diffusers is relative to how low you want the diffusion to happen. I believe Ethan has shown that, occasionally, sources are placed close to diffusion intentionally. I can't confidently say I've ever experienced diffusion first hand so you can either put some in your room and test it out or seek out a room where it's in service. The type of diffuser you'll use is called "skyline" and it diffuses in three dimensions as opposed to a "well" diffuser which creates two dimensions of diffusion and is typically used for vertical walls. -m |
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Post by stevenosilence on Mar 12, 2017 10:24:44 GMT
Regarding diffusion, my understanding is that you want one foot of distance for every inch of diffuser depth. The depth of your diffusers is relative to how low you want the diffusion to happen. I believe Ethan has shown that, occasionally, sources are placed close to diffusion intentionally. I can't confidently say I've ever experienced diffusion first hand so you can either put some in your room and test it out or seek out a room where it's in service. The type of diffuser you'll use is called "skyline" and it diffuses in three dimensions as opposed to a "well" diffuser which creates two dimensions of diffusion and is typically used for vertical walls. -m Okay, then I'm going to use diffusers and maybe I will combine them with absorption if I have to, but I don't really want that, only if necessary. The moveable gobos are enough to control the decay time of the room or to use them behind the kit etc. Which type of diffuser works better in my case? I'm looking at the Skyline design, but I'm not sure how to calculate the correct frequency range for it. What would you recommend? The Space coupler design looks more lightweight on the ceiling, but I'm worrying about the effectiveness of it. Do they work in a drum room? As I wrote the ceiling is 3.5m high and the distance from the diffusers would be around 1.5 meters close to the Overhead mics. Sorry for being so lame in this thing, but I'm learning it and I want the best solution for my case Thanks for your help Hex! |
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Post by Hexspa on Mar 12, 2017 19:02:50 GMT
As I've been advised to be careful about to who I link but I can say this:
1.5 meters is almost 5'. That means you can safely use 5" of diffusion if Ethan's rule of thumb is to be applied. With that depth you can diffuse past 700Hz with scattering at 350Hz. 500Hz is the lowest anyone recommends diffusion being done at and that occurs with 7" well depth. Apparently well width affects upper limit frequency effectiveness. This is all for a well diffuser - skyline I don't know.
Keep in mind - I don't have diffusion, have no first hand experience with proper diffusion and my advice should be taken lightly.
If you google "razorblade science diffuser" you can look at the chart I'm seeing. Also search for "QRD Calculator and Diffusion schroeder diffuser".
-m
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Post by stevenosilence on Mar 14, 2017 0:22:23 GMT
As I've been advised to be careful about to who I link but I can say this: 1.5 meters is almost 5'. That means you can safely use 5" of diffusion if Ethan's rule of thumb is to be applied. With that depth you can diffuse past 700Hz with scattering at 350Hz. 500Hz is the lowest anyone recommends diffusion being done at and that occurs with 7" well depth. Apparently well width affects upper limit frequency effectiveness. This is all for a well diffuser - skyline I don't know. Keep in mind - I don't have diffusion, have no first hand experience with proper diffusion and my advice should be taken lightly. If you google "razorblade science diffuser" you can look at the chart I'm seeing. Also search for "QRD Calculator and Diffusion schroeder diffuser". -m Thank you for your help! The QRD diffusers would be too heavy and expensive in my case, so I'm looking at Space Couplers to use in both of my rooms (control & live room). My plan is to put them up slanted on the ceiling in the live room. I'm going to use 8 bigger pannels. Do you think it's a good idea to angle them? How much space should I leave behind them? (between the ceiling and panels) I'm not quite sure about the scattering/diffusion efficiency of these panels, but some people prefers to use them in their live rooms. What's your point of view? If these panels wouldn't be enough I can put some absorption behind them to tame the reflections more. This is my last message, but I had to ask just to be sure I'm going to do the right thing in this case Thanks for your time! I really appreciate it! Attachments:
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Post by Hexspa on Mar 14, 2017 5:26:17 GMT
I have no idea. If you're considering absorption I'd just go that route. It's cheaper and you know what you're getting.
You have a big room. Anything beyond 2500ft3 and I'm out of my league.
There are a few other people on this forum who can help you more.
-m
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Post by Ethan Winer on Mar 16, 2017 16:20:21 GMT
You don't need to cover the whole ceiling to control flutter echo Exactly. The large studio I owned in the 1980s had terrible flutter echo between the floor with thin carpet and the drywall ceiling. So we covered half the ceiling with very thick rigid fiberglass tiles and that solved the problem completely:  |
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