|
Post by Shane on Jul 10, 2017 13:17:49 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Shane on Jul 10, 2017 13:47:51 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Hexspa on Jul 11, 2017 3:45:36 GMT
They listened at different positions in the room, immediately invalidating their results. The acoustic response of a space changes within a very small distance. Even if you lean a little forward or backward, so many things change including phase, reflections, axis and modal response. A much better test would be to record the swap and enter the files into an ABX tester. Either that or have both cables wired up to such a device and do double blind switching in the room. You can't just move around and be like, "Ya, it's different." There needs to be some kind of control to provide contrast to the variable. I'm not a Science major but this is just basic logic. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by rock on Jul 11, 2017 12:20:18 GMT
For 50 feet, that monoprice 12ga may be a good deal. I just did a quick look at home depot lamp cord and they are selling 50 feet of 16ga for $17.24 so just comparing length/gauge/price, the mono price price is better.
I did not read the entire article because I am a "audio cable skeptic" but I think that it's honest of the author to admit his stance on the subject.
From an electrical/electronic standpoint, heavier gauge is better because of lower resistance for less loss and better damping factor but as has been shown, beyond a point, even these issues will fade to insignificance well before you get up to 12 gauge.
IMHO you won't hear the difference between the monoprice 12ga and the home depot 16ga but since the 12ga is cheaper, it's a no brainer.
Cheers, Rock
|
|
|
Post by Shane on Jul 11, 2017 15:01:34 GMT
Thanks, Hexspa.
Thanks, rock.
May I ask you another question? In your opinion, is there such a thing as speaker cable's sound characteristic?
|
|
|
Post by rock on Jul 11, 2017 15:20:37 GMT
I would say no. In the case of the series resistance dropping some voltage thereby causing speakers to operate at slightly less output is linear and usually a minuscule drop at that. The issue of lowering the damping factor would theoretically allow less control of the woofer, but it has been argued that this effect is also minuscule. If you're running long distances and high power, it's a good idea to use a heavier gauge. But high power setups usually have the amp close to the speakers and long runs are done with balanced line level or via network using cat5 or 6 cables. I say, if it's cheap enough (15 bucks?) go with the 12ga monoprice, it's a small price to pay for that "warm fuzzy feeling" your cables won't "degrade" your sound...whether you can hear it or not Cheers, Rock
|
|
|
Post by Ethan Winer on Jul 11, 2017 21:09:20 GMT
I don't have time to read all that blather. I did skim. Where does it say they were able to identify which wire is which enough times to be statistically significant? Can someone post here the relevant sentences. I'll add that I knew the writer is full of shit when he claimed that "hardcore non-audiophile skeptics" believe 24 gauge wire is good enough. I'm a skeptic, and an audiophile, and I'd never say such a thing. So right off the bat he's guilty of the logical fallacy known as a Red Herring. You introduce something unrelated to the topic at hand and attack that instead of addressing the actual issue.
|
|
|
Post by Hexspa on Jul 12, 2017 5:16:15 GMT
When I was younger, I wired up my guitar rack with monster cables.
I thought it sounded different. Then again I was victim to the same "put-em-in-then-listen-again" flaw as previously mentioned.
rock mentions damping factor which seems like it might be related to ohms. We also did a listening test to a Marshall cabinet in 4, 8 and 16 ohms and found that the sound went from wide open to choked respectively. Whether I could tell the difference ABX now, I don't know.
Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by Shane on Jul 12, 2017 7:03:30 GMT
Thanks, Ethan
Here it is.
"For our next test, I selected one of the cables I liked from the first round, and we put that against the Monoprice 2747 12 gauge. This was to see if the move to a thicker gauge made an audible difference.
Interestingly, after our murky results from the first round, the difference between the 14 gauge and the 12 gauge was not only noticeable. It was definitive. Though the difference was still subtle, a difference was noticeable and repeatable across different music selections and seating positions. The 2747 sounded slightly fuller, like there was more heft to the sound. By comparison, the 14 gauge seemed thinner. Remember, this was done blind; we didn’t know which brand/gauge was which. We could, though, repeatedly pick out which cable sounded better and have that pick consistently be the same cable. This was the only result so far that we were confident in.
Next, we compared the Monoprice 2747 to the Pyle PSC1250. This test was similar to our first test, in that it was the same thickness of wire but different brands. The result was less apparent than the result from 14 vs. 12 gauge test, but there was still a noticeable difference. The Monoprice sounded a little more open and slightly richer."
|
|
|
Post by arnyk on Jul 12, 2017 11:22:34 GMT
I don't have time to read all that blather. I did skim. Where does it say they were able to identify which wire is which enough times to be statistically significant? They didn't. ;-( Agreed The means to do a sensitive, reliable listening tests are well known. Blatant efforts to make fun of science like this are an affront to logic and reason. The Wirecutter is on my watch list because of their financial ties to people who sell the products they purport to review. I've seen documents that appear to be emails from their staff panhandling for cash in exchange for good reviews and other documentation of reviews gone bad when the requests for cash were declined. \ The New York Times should be ashamed to have their name on this balderdash.
|
|
|
Post by arnyk on Jul 12, 2017 11:28:59 GMT
Thanks, Hexspa. Thanks, rock. May I ask you another question? In your opinion, is there such a thing as speaker cable's sound characteristic? A speaker cable can affect sound quality if it is vastly undersized, such as a 25 foot 24 gauge speaker cable, such as Radio Shack used to sell. Certain exotic speakers can have ludicrous, amp-busting ultra-low impedance curves, and they can demand the use of carefully-chosen cables. Really long speaker cables, such as those that might be used for live sound, can set up conditions where the speaker cables can matter, even if not obviously inadequate. But in general, no.
|
|
|
Post by arnyk on Jul 12, 2017 11:32:22 GMT
When I was younger, I wired up my guitar rack with monster cables. I thought it sounded different. Then again I was victim to the same "put-em-in-then-listen-again" flaw as previously mentioned. rock mentions damping factor which seems like it might be related to ohms. We also did a listening test to a Marshall cabinet in 4, 8 and 16 ohms and found that the sound went from wide open to choked respectively. Whether I could tell the difference ABX now, I don't know. Interestingly enough, due to the fact that high impedance guitar pickups are fairly common, tuning the tone of a guitar with different kinds and lengths of guitar cable is possible. Different lengths and different capacitance per foot can possibly matter. This differs from audio gear, where almost all gear has very low output source impedances. Also, some headphone amps have excessively high source impedances that can interact with low impedance headphones that also have rough impedance curves and audibly affect sound quality.
|
|
|
Post by sal1950 on Jul 12, 2017 12:02:25 GMT
|
|
|
Post by rock on Jul 12, 2017 12:46:27 GMT
Surprising indeed. I would not have thought the DC resistance of different samples of 12ga could vary so much! Caveat emptor!
As far as the DC measurements are concerned, I think the author should have opted for a much longer test sample length. The coil non-uniformity from sample to sample should not matter for DC.
Cheers, Rock
|
|
|
Post by arnyk on Jul 12, 2017 13:43:21 GMT
Surprising indeed. I would not have thought the DC resistance of different samples of 12ga could vary so much! Caveat emptor! As far as the DC measurements are concerned, I think the author should have opted for a much longer test sample length. The coil non-uniformity from sample to sample should not matter for DC. Cheers, Rock This info was posted on The AV (anti) Science forum some years ago, before he got booted off. The issues that Amir did a nice job on was that some AV people are trying to sell aluminum at copper prices. Some cheat a bit on wire gauge. Not good. Speaker wire is unregulated, but power wiring has to meet code, so buying CL-rated stranded house wiring cables from a big box store might be the safer bet. It is flexible enough but doesn't have that wonderful limp feel that the posh cables have. Hey, you hook it up and shove it behind the speakers, right, eh? The camel in the tent is that Amir's comparisons are based on a non-standard wire which makes even standards-compliant wire look bad. Look up 100 different wire gauge resistance tables on the web and they will all net out to 12 gauge wire having a resistance of about 0.0016 ohms or 1.6 milliohms per foot. Even Belden specs their wire that way. Amir's tests show that Belden beats spec by so much (0.0011 ohms/foot) that it IMO has to be intentional. Being too good is no evil unless size and weight become issues which is far from the usual case. If you are building airplanes or race cars, you might worry about buying Belden. Seriously. Pretending that everything that is not super-sized by almost 50% is deficient is false and deceptive. But it makes the report look so much more spectacular, does it not? I pointed this out at the time, but who the #&!! am I? ;-)
|
|