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Post by uchihaitachi on Jul 24, 2017 21:00:06 GMT
After Ethan's recommendations I have saved up enough to purchase the Mackie HR824 MKII and was considering purchasing them, but I had a few queries I wanted to raise. Please bear with me and my noobness!
1. Is it worth getting the monitors (I do prefer speakers over headphones) when the room I will be using them isn't ideal - the shape is asymmetrical, quite rectangular (with sloping walls to one side) and I am thinking of putting the monitors near the wall to one side? In other words, is the degradation in performance due to the room specifications a deal breaker? I am not experienced enough with setting up speakers to know the answer to this question, and I am also aware that different speakers tend to react differently to the room acoustics etc. I will however try my best to position and calibrate them to the best of my abilities but would like to keep them close to the wall on stands.
If it is still worthwhile in your experienced opinions to buy these, I had a few follow up questions.
2. Would it be fine (no degradation to the transparency) to use the ODAC's RCA to feed the speakers?
3. What equipment would be best for the testing of the frequency response etc. I have had a look at some of the measurement speakers but most of them tend to require other audio equipment to make them function. Some other very rudimentary microphones such as the Dayton Audio iMM-6 (the one that plugs into the phone) seems (in my opinion) not up to the job. If so, could somebody recommend me a microphone (I have seen Ethan's blog on this already but wasn't sure which one to get and if so what other equipment I would need) and the other equipment I would need to make accurate measurements for calibration. Although I don't want to spend too much in this regard, I would prefer quality so that I can reuse it into the future.
4. Are there any other considerations that I need to factor in?
Thank you guys (and girls?) in advance!
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Post by uchihaitachi on Jul 24, 2017 22:59:22 GMT
Oh also another quick question, are any of you familiar with the xr824 vs hr824?
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Post by arnyk on Jul 25, 2017 10:33:43 GMT
1. Is it worth getting the monitors (I do prefer speakers over headphones) when the room I will be using them isn't ideal - the shape is asymmetrical, quite rectangular (with sloping walls to one side) and I am thinking of putting the monitors near the wall to one side? In other words, is the degradation in performance due to the room specifications a deal breaker? I am not experienced enough with setting up speakers to know the answer to this question, and I am also aware that different speakers tend to react differently to the room acoustics etc. I will however try my best to position and calibrate them to the best of my abilities but would like to keep them close to the wall on stands. Your room may not be all that bad. The rectangular ceiling and the non-square shape are two good things to have. Most rooms need to be tuned with the speakers. This means moving the speakers around the room and establishing your work area/listening area to best suit the room. Near field monitors like the HR824's aren't that inhibited by being placed against the wall as long as there is a free area whose depth maybe 2-3 inches or more behind them to allow the sound from the passive radiator on the back to escape freely. Don\t put them into a closed shelf. Read the user guide before you buy them, it is here: mackie.com/sites/default/files/PRODUCT%20RESOURCES/MANUALS/Owners_Manuals/HR824mk2_OM.pdfYes. You need 3 things: (1) Acoustic measurement software. What may be among the best is free! Google and download Room Eq Wizard (REW) and Holme Impulse. They both can have long learning curves. It comes with the territory, this is a problem that software can't fix. (2) A measurement-type mic. I recommend the Dayton UMM6 as it is easy to set up and use. This is among the best of its kind. There seem to be 3 or more, more-or-less identical versions of this product, but they all sell for pretty much the same price. Another version is sold by MiniDSP. (3) A PC or laptop PC to run the software. Doesn't take a lot of resources to run. Be prepared for a long learning curve, as this is a complex areas. There are areas of online forums that are devoted to this sort of thing. Be prepared to experiment. Try different things, and then where you think you have something good, listen to it for a few days or a few weeks and then try again. Be prepared to add sound absorbing materials to the room. Also, the HR824 used to be fairly unique, but those days have been gone for up to a decade. Its most worthy competition may be the Behringer "Truth" monitors which are really very good despite the presumptious name, and the JBL Pro LSR308. Discussions of which are best can be endless, but their pricing is pretty stable and attractive. The JBL Pro is the most recent and already has quite a reputation after a few years. They are the most technologically advanced and may have the lowest cost. I've been listening to them all for years, like 'em all, recommedn them all but own several 308's (so bear that in mind when guessing about my biases). |
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Post by uchihaitachi on Jul 25, 2017 23:22:56 GMT
1. Is it worth getting the monitors (I do prefer speakers over headphones) when the room I will be using them isn't ideal - the shape is asymmetrical, quite rectangular (with sloping walls to one side) and I am thinking of putting the monitors near the wall to one side? In other words, is the degradation in performance due to the room specifications a deal breaker? I am not experienced enough with setting up speakers to know the answer to this question, and I am also aware that different speakers tend to react differently to the room acoustics etc. I will however try my best to position and calibrate them to the best of my abilities but would like to keep them close to the wall on stands. Your room may not be all that bad. The rectangular ceiling and the non-square shape are two good things to have. Most rooms need to be tuned with the speakers. This means moving the speakers around the room and establishing your work area/listening area to best suit the room. Near field monitors like the HR824's aren't that inhibited by being placed against the wall as long as there is a free area whose depth maybe 2-3 inches or more behind them to allow the sound from the passive radiator on the back to escape freely. Don\t put them into a closed shelf. Read the user guide before you buy them, it is here: mackie.com/sites/default/files/PRODUCT%20RESOURCES/MANUALS/Owners_Manuals/HR824mk2_OM.pdfYes. You need 3 things: (1) Acoustic measurement software. What may be among the best is free! Google and download Room Eq Wizard (REW) and Holme Impulse. They both can have long learning curves. It comes with the territory, this is a problem that software can't fix. (2) A measurement-type mic. I recommend the Dayton UMM6 as it is easy to set up and use. This is among the best of its kind. There seem to be 3 or more, more-or-less identical versions of this product, but they all sell for pretty much the same price. Another version is sold by MiniDSP. (3) A PC or laptop PC to run the software. Doesn't take a lot of resources to run. Be prepared for a long learning curve, as this is a complex areas. There are areas of online forums that are devoted to this sort of thing. Be prepared to experiment. Try different things, and then where you think you have something good, listen to it for a few days or a few weeks and then try again. Be prepared to add sound absorbing materials to the room. Also, the HR824 used to be fairly unique, but those days have been gone for up to a decade. Its most worthy competition may be the Behringer "Truth" monitors which are really very good despite the presumptious name, and the JBL Pro LSR824. Discussions of which are best can be endless, but their pricing is pretty stable and attractive. The JBL Pro is the most recent and already has quite a reputation after a few years. They are the most technologically advanced and may have the lowest cost. I've been listening to them all for years, like 'em all, recommedn them all but own several 308's (so bear that in mind when guessing about my biases). Thank you so much for the in depth and comprehensive response. I can sense that it will be a long yet interesting journey! |
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Post by uchihaitachi on Jul 26, 2017 9:57:15 GMT
Also, the HR824 used to be fairly unique, but those days have been gone for up to a decade. Its most worthy competition may be the Behringer "Truth" monitors which are really very good despite the presumptious name, and the JBL Pro LSR824. Discussions of which are best can be endless, but their pricing is pretty stable and attractive. The JBL Pro is the most recent and already has quite a reputation after a few years. They are the most technologically advanced and may have the lowest cost. I've been listening to them all for years, like 'em all, recommedn them all but own several 308's (so bear that in mind when guessing about my biases). I wanted to ask, I had a look for the JBL LSR824 but couldn't find it online? Were you referring to the 6 series? I am quite concerned about the bass extension, coming form headphones, I feel I would feel a lack of bass regarding the 308s (without subs) compared to the HR824 MKII, but as much as I would love to demo these speakers, I couldn't find any shops with the speakers that I want to try in stock, and as a result I had to rely on looking at measurements (I know that my personal preference is for transparency). When you use the 308s, do you use them without subs and if so does the lack of bass extension bother you? What kind of genre of music do you primarily listen to? Thank you in advance. |
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Post by arnyk on Jul 26, 2017 16:30:47 GMT
I wanted to ask, I had a look for the JBL LSR824 but couldn't find it online? Were you referring to the 6 series? Tes, I was in error. I corrected it, and the second mention was correct all along. The right number is LSR 308 [/quote] I am quite concerned about the bass extension, coming form headphones, I feel I would feel a lack of bass regarding the 308s (without subs) compared to the HR824 MKII, but as much as I would love to demo these speakers, I couldn't find any shops with the speakers that I want to try in stock, and as a result I had to rely on looking at measurements (I know that my personal preference is for transparency). When you use the 308s, do you use them without subs and if so does the lack of bass extension bother you? What kind of genre of music do you primarily listen to? [/quote] All three speakers have decent clean bass extension from vented 8" bass/midrange drivers. Npne of the 3 will compare with the bass from some headphones. I use my LSR308s with subs that I plan to upgrade. I believe that Ethan has invested in subwoofers, as well. Bass depends a lot on the room. Without a sub in an average room any of the 3 are OK down to about 42 Hz - about the lowest string on a typical 4 string bass. |
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Post by uchihaitachi on Jul 26, 2017 16:38:05 GMT
I wanted to ask, I had a look for the JBL LSR824 but couldn't find it online? Were you referring to the 6 series? Tes, I was in error. I corrected it, and the second mention was correct all along. The right number is LSR 308 Thank you again. Upon you recommendation, and a whole lot of reading reviews and impressions, I am strongly leaning now to the LSR308s. The prices also seem unbeatable. I realised however that the LSR308s have only TRS and XLR inputs and similar to my initial questions regarding RCA from ODAC to RCA of the Mackies, would it be fine in your opinion without any deterioration to the transparency to hook up the LSR308 by using cables (RCA to TRS) from PC -> (via USB) ODAC -> (RCA to TRS) LSR308, or would a USB audio interface be necessary? Thank you again! |
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Post by uchihaitachi on Jul 27, 2017 8:37:20 GMT
By USB audio interface I mean a device like the scarlett 2i2, to enable a direct TRS to TRS balanced connection.
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Post by Ethan Winer on Jul 28, 2017 14:58:13 GMT
You're getting lots of good advice already so I'll add just a bit. Even minimal acoustic treatment is mandatory for great sound. Even if you go "ghetto" and stack a few bags of fiberglass in the corners, and tape bath towels at the side wall reflection points, that matters at least as much as which speakers you get. Don't be scared by Arny's warning of a steep learning curve for the REW software. It's not really that bad. You set the record level, run a sweep, then show the graphs. Learning what the graphs mean, and how best to display them (parameter ranges) is probably more difficult than running the software. This will help: Room Measuring Primer |
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Post by uchihaitachi on Jul 30, 2017 22:50:13 GMT
You're getting lots of good advice already so I'll add just a bit. Even minimal acoustic treatment is mandatory for great sound. Even if you go "ghetto" and stack a few bags of fiberglass in the corners, and tape bath towels at the side wall reflection points, that matters at least as much as which speakers you get. Don't be scared by Arny's warning of a steep learning curve for the REW software. It's not really that bad. You set the record level, run a sweep, then show the graphs. Learning what the graphs mean, and how best to display them (parameter ranges) is probably more difficult than running the software. This will help: Room Measuring PrimerThank you Ethan for the input. Fortunately I know what the graphs mean thanks to your book! Do you feel that a stand alone audio interface will be necessary or can I just use a headphone DAC to feed the speakers? |
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Post by rock on Jul 31, 2017 1:39:43 GMT
In most cases you will probably need an interface. If you use your PC or Mac (I use a Mac), the line input will typically not have enough gain for most mics so you at least need an audio interface for your mic input. Your interface will also have a line out so you will send that to your power amp/speaker or powered speaker.
I have and old old stand alone a test set with a mic, warble tone oscillator and meter. I have hacked the circuit to send the preamped mic signal to my Mac line in and use the Mac line/headphone out to the amp/speaker. So if you can reliably preamp your test mic or it does drive a line signal input (with a built-in preamp), you CAN get away without an audio interface.
BTW, I should probably mention that I don't use or need the test set oscillator or meter with REW; it just happens to be built into the same box.
Cheers,
Rock
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Post by Hexspa on Jul 31, 2017 9:57:47 GMT
If you use REW, you'll need a standalone SPL meter or app in your phone to calibrate the level. Alternatively, you could just guess and enter in 75dB, assuming the volume is reasonably loud.
But ya, you'll need phantom power for a condenser.
REW is like poker: minute to learn, lifetime to master. Not just the software but moving panels etc. Luckily, we have this forum.
Thanks.
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Post by arnyk on Aug 1, 2017 12:01:50 GMT
Tes, I was in error. I corrected it, and the second mention was correct all along. The right number is LSR 308 Thank you again. Upon you recommendation, and a whole lot of reading reviews and impressions, I am strongly leaning now to the LSR308s. The prices also seem unbeatable. I realised however that the LSR308s have only TRS and XLR inputs and similar to my initial questions regarding RCA from ODAC to RCA of the Mackies, would it be fine in your opinion without any deterioration to the transparency to hook up the LSR308 by using cables (RCA to TRS) from PC -> (via USB) ODAC -> (RCA to TRS) LSR308, or would a USB audio interface be necessary? Thank you again! There should be no problem using appropriate adapters. You don't need specialized RCA -> TRS adaptors although they work fine. IME the standard RCA to 1/4" mono adaptor is often much easier to find and electrically identical |
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Post by arnyk on Aug 1, 2017 12:23:44 GMT
In most cases you will probably need an interface. If you use your PC or Mac (I use a Mac), the line input will typically not have enough gain for most mics so you at least need an audio interface for your mic input. Your interface will also have a line out so you will send that to your power amp/speaker or powered speaker. I have and old old stand alone a test set with a mic, warble tone oscillator and meter. I have hacked the circuit to send the preamped mic signal to my Mac line in and use the Mac line/headphone out to the amp/speaker. So if you can reliably preamp your test mic or it does drive a line signal input (with a built-in preamp), you CAN get away without an audio interface. BTW, I should probably mention that I don't use or need the test set oscillator or meter with REW; it just happens to be built into the same box. There is a reason why I recommended the UMM6 microphone. It attaches to the PC via USB. A calibration file is supplied for it, you just have to go to a web site whose URL is provided with the mic, type in the serial number of the mic, and download a matching calibration file. Use the appropriate REW menu and it will read the file and apply its contents. Done! The gain and frequency response of a USB microphone are precisely known quantities because they are set up in the device in the digital domain, given that all possible volume controls related to the mic (if any) are set to max. Otherwise, sensitivity calibration of a mic like this is best set up using a mic calibrator. These used to be rare and cost an arm and a leg, but they are now available for about $100 several ways, including eBay. The frequency response of the electret capsules that these mics are based is pretty consistent, even if their sensitivity changes by quite a bit with age and/or climate, which happens with some of them. |
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Post by arnyk on Aug 1, 2017 12:30:47 GMT
Thank you again. Upon you recommendation, and a whole lot of reading reviews and impressions, I am strongly leaning now to the LSR308s. The prices also seem unbeatable. I realised however that the LSR308s have only TRS and XLR inputs and similar to my initial questions regarding RCA from ODAC to RCA of the Mackies, would it be fine in your opinion without any deterioration to the transparency to hook up the LSR308 by using cables (RCA to TRS) from PC -> (via USB) ODAC -> (RCA to TRS) LSR308, or would a USB audio interface be necessary? Thank you again! There should be no problem using appropriate adapters. You don't need specialized RCA -> TRS adaptors although they work fine. IME the standard RCA to 1/4" mono adaptor is often much easier to find and electrically identical There is a reason why I warn people about the acoustic measurement learning curve, which is that I have seen way too many people find out that unlike becoming a Golden Ear Audio Web Eggspurt, learning how to do practical electronics can take some actual work. As the old saying goes, "Forewarned is forearmed". IOW if you are warned that a bullet may be coming, you can watch for it and dodge it. The audio measurements flame-outs are heart-rending for me to watch. OTOH, products like REW and the UMM-6 microphones are designed for, and provided to rank amateurs in large numbers, with generally good results to those who stick with it for more than a millisecond. |
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