Trdat
Junior Member
Posts: 78 
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Post by Trdat on Feb 11, 2018 16:35:12 GMT
I just was reading the thread, "Subjectivists vs Ethan Winer" very interesting.
Its seems I could of fallen for the audiophile trap, but I thought a modest but small upgrade could of given me a unique sound with at least a slightly improved sound stage.
I upgraded to a NADC510 Preamp/Dac($1300) from a $600 integrated amp NADC356 which had its own basic DAC. I am using the C510 as opposed to the preamp section in the integrated with a crossover in-between the C510 and the old integrated still being used as a power amp and running two subs.
I do have DSP and have over 20 traps.
There is virtually no improvement at all, the warm sound of my old integrated was something else, the sharpness of the new all digital DAC to me is hurting my ears heavily and cant listen to loud levels. Whether that is because there is less distortion and I can play louder I dont know.
So is there anything I can do other than go back to my old amp? That is an option and I am considering it...
I know there is Ethan Winer's Mojo, is that applicable for this type of thing? I am not into DIY.
If I had a budget would a tube buffer help get rid of that sharpness? What else can be recommended?
Kindest Regard
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 11, 2018 18:50:22 GMT
Get used to it, go back to your old setup, or implement some distortion strategy like an Empirical Labs fatso.
Ethan definitely has some mojo but only He can advise you as to how you may wield it..
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Trdat
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by Trdat on Feb 13, 2018 6:29:20 GMT
Hexspa,
I have bought what is needed to go back to my old set up so curious to see how I feel going back to old amp.
Would adding tube distortion say a passive tube preamp after the DAC help? Cause what you recommended was expensive...
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 14, 2018 22:51:57 GMT
Hexspa, I have bought what is needed to go back to my old set up so curious to see how I feel going back to old amp. Would adding tube distortion say a passive tube preamp after the DAC help? Cause what you recommended was expensive... Hey trdat. I wish I could help you out more but hifi isn't my forte. Maybe you could run your old setup in parallel and blend some of that grittiness back in. I'm just grasping at straws at this point. Really, just try some stuff out and let us know how it goes. Maybe someone else will chime in. |
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Trdat
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by Trdat on Feb 17, 2018 11:45:05 GMT
Thanks for your effort Hexspa, I can understand this sight has more to it than just audiophilery. Lol!
But, after some more research it seems adding anything in between my pre and power amp will cause some noise as I already have a crossover in between. Others are saying you cant fix a bad amp, a bad amp is a bad amp. But the amp is not so bad so I was under the impression some subtle distortion might help.
My next option is a tube power amp, which will be a fun upgrade but costly and the million dollar question is how much will it help with alleviating the sharp sound of the preamp?
I will receive my RCA to XLR cables soon can't wait to try my old set up again and get a feel of it. My girlfriend who hates my system said "I dont want to break your heart but your new system is sharp and annoying I don't like it."
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 18, 2018 1:12:58 GMT
Thanks for your effort Hexspa, I can understand this sight has more to it than just audiophilery. Lol! But, after some more research it seems adding anything in between my pre and power amp will cause some noise as I already have a crossover in between. Others are saying you cant fix a bad amp, a bad amp is a bad amp. But the amp is not so bad so I was under the impression some subtle distortion might help. My next option is a tube power amp, which will be a fun upgrade but costly and the million dollar question is how much will it help with alleviating the sharp sound of the preamp? I will receive my RCA to XLR cables soon can't wait to try my old set up again and get a feel of it. My girlfriend who hates my system said "I dont want to break your heart but your new system is sharp and annoying I don't like it." trdat, I think you have to experiment. It's possible your new equipment is faulty and actually producing the distortion which is causing harshness. You could take acoustic measurements of both your old amp and your new. Just make sure to implement consistency. You can always EQ too! So long as it's not corrective, what's wrong with a little shelf or LPF? Again, if something like a Fatso is too much, just try running your stuff through some other preamps. I don't remember exactly what's causing the harshness. Is it the amp? Couldn't you run the output though some capacitors or something to dull the sound? Lol I have no idea what I'm talking about. Anyway, that's my brainstorm. |
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Post by Ethan Winer on Feb 23, 2018 16:51:01 GMT
I agree with Hex above that EQ is the right approach. Harshness is mostly about too much treble, especially the range between 2-4 KHz. If your older setup was rolled off, maybe you got used to that sound and now a flat response seems harsh? Also, you mentioned having 20 traps, but do you have absorbers at the side-wall reflection points? Also, if you have DSP, try disabling that as a test. Often "room EQ" makes things worse rather than better.
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Trdat
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by Trdat on Feb 28, 2018 12:18:19 GMT
Thanks guys for your response. Firstly, I didn't know about the 2-4khz range. And your probably right about me liking the old sound better. Yes, I do have absorbers on side walls a very large RFZ zone. I honestly think I just much preferred the warmer sound of the old amp. The DSP is touch and go if not used properly, but if used well I feel you do get some sonic benefit. The DSP really helped with the sharpness and the trebly sound but it was still there...
I have cabled up my old set up and I won't say that it is better or worse but there is no doubt in my mind that I prefer it and the harshness and sharpness of the new preamp was horrible. I was clearly fooled by marketing in the hope for better sound by upgrading a component when Ethan has worked so hard to educate us on.
I will be upgrading my speakers though and have decided on a DIY project. I will go for a 3 way with 8inch woofer about 40 litres, I think the larger capacity, the better crossovers and larger woofers should improve my sound.
To be honest everything I have upgraded(dual sub, crossover) has been great except this new preamp.
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Trdat
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by Trdat on Feb 28, 2018 12:20:55 GMT
Hexpa,
Just out of curiosity how would acoustic measurements tell me if there is distortion? What do I look for?
Can it tell me somehow that the preamp might be faulty?
Regards
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Post by Hexspa on Mar 1, 2018 3:03:54 GMT
Hexpa, Just out of curiosity how would acoustic measurements tell me if there is distortion? What do I look for? Can it tell me somehow that the preamp might be faulty? Regards I don't know trdat. Straight audio components are not my field of expertise. A story I can share is about when I bought a VHT power amp for my guitar rig. Originally, I was using a Carvin and it was ok but nothing like the Marshall 9200 another guy had. Well, they'd stop making the Marshalls so I went with that silver thing. To this day, I regret buying it. It sounded fine but it's character did not compliment my style at all. Case in point: caveat emptor and always hang on to your receipt. |
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Post by Ethan Winer on Mar 1, 2018 19:46:17 GMT
When you do a sweep with the Room EQ Wizard program, one of the display graphs shows distortion. Cool! But it shows distortion only for the entire chain starting where you connect your sound card. So it can include a receiver or preamp, but not a CD player source.
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Post by arnyk on Mar 3, 2018 13:39:03 GMT
Thanks for your effort Hexspa, I can understand this site has more to it than just audiophilery. Lol! But, after some more research it seems adding anything in between my pre and power amp will cause some noise as I already have a crossover in between. Others are saying you cant fix a bad amp, a bad amp is a bad amp. But the amp is not so bad so I was under the impression some subtle distortion might help. My next option is a tube power amp, which will be a fun upgrade but costly and the million dollar question is how much will it help with alleviating the sharp sound of the preamp? I will receive my RCA to XLR cables soon can't wait to try my old set up again and get a feel of it. My girlfriend who hates my system said "I dont want to break your heart but your new system is sharp and annoying I don't like it." Ethan gave you great advice obtain REW (free) or its free alternative Holme Impulse, a measurement mic, and test out the acoustical response of your system. It is very common, if not virtually guaranteed that your listening environment is not as good as it would be if the room were properly acoustically treated, and your system properly equalized. To correct your system's response obtain as many channels of equalization as you have speakers, and introduce it between your source (console, preamp) and your crossover. Examples of commonly used alternative equlizers with high performance and reasonble costs are: MiniDSP, Rane PE 15 or 17, Behringer PEQ 2200. I've used all of these things, and of course being part of the real world they add measurable noise and distortion, but not audible noise and distortion. It is what you hear that matters! |
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Trdat
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by Trdat on Mar 5, 2018 16:19:10 GMT
Thanks Arnyk,
Look you could be right, I do get this feeling my fabric is reflecting some high frequencies.
I will also take some measurements. My DSP is doing well, I just need to spend more time tweaking the frequency curve. The option of adding a equalizer between the source might be another option need to consider.
I asked this question in the other post, I thought it was appropriate there but it could of got swamped among many of the write ups. I can imagine the crew here hates answering questions about upgrades but I do no to want to make the same mistake I did with the amp. Now, I can see an amp doesn't make considerable difference.
I am curious if upgrading from a 2 way small bookshelf to a large 3 way speaker(40 litres) give me a sonic benefit? I mean the 3 way will have a 8inch woofer compared to the 2 ways 4 inch. I will attempt DIY, there are projects on the internet with all the necessary information, you just purchase the woofers and crossovers. I am just curious if the sonic difference is placebo like with amplifiers or with such an upgrade I can get some considerable improvements in sound? What are your opinions?
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Post by Hexspa on Mar 5, 2018 18:14:52 GMT
Thanks Arnyk, Look you could be right, I do get this feeling my fabric is reflecting some high frequencies. I will also take some measurements. My DSP is doing well, I just need to spend more time tweaking the frequency curve. The option of adding a equalizer between the source might be another option need to consider. I asked this question in the other post, I thought it was appropriate there but it could of got swamped among many of the write ups. I can imagine the crew here hates answering questions about upgrades but I do no to want to make the same mistake I did with the amp. Now, I can see an amp doesn't make considerable difference. I am curious if upgrading from a 2 way small bookshelf to a large 3 way speaker(40 litres) give me a sonic benefit? I mean the 3 way will have a 8inch woofer compared to the 2 ways 4 inch. I will attempt DIY, there are projects on the internet with all the necessary information, you just purchase the woofers and crossovers. I am just curious if the sonic difference is placebo like with amplifiers or with such an upgrade I can get some considerable improvements in sound? What are your opinions? I can't speak for your designs specifically but, as far as the Yamaha HS series goes, there is a significant difference in the published frequency response among the 5, 7, and 8 inch configurations. Bigger is better, in this case. Then again, they're all two-way systems. |
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