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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 21:00:50 GMT
So, i was measuring (yeah again,always) my speakers in my room. When looking and aiming for that "flat" response, I should set the bass adjustment knob on focals somewhere at +3 - +5db. I get in my measurements a little rise at bass area, also more flat response overall. BUT
BUT that makes me actually to hear less bass, could this be some kind of masking? It looks better and flatter on the graphs...
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Post by Michael Lawrence on Jul 27, 2018 21:42:45 GMT
Our bass perception depends heavily on SPL. It rolls off dramatically at lower SPLs. I'm about to run out the door, so that's all I have time for currently, but look up Equal Loudness Contours as a start!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 22:13:18 GMT
When I have less bass output from speakers, I do hear more bass and more clearly. SPL is actually little lower.
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Post by Michael Lawrence on Jul 28, 2018 2:00:49 GMT
Interesting. Are you using a sub?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2018 7:20:34 GMT
Nope, only Focal Twins.
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Post by Michael Lawrence on Jul 28, 2018 12:59:08 GMT
If you're interested enough to actually get to the bottom of it, the first thing I would do is a blind test. Have someone else adjust the control so you don't know how it's set, and see if you can correctly tell every time. If you're getting it right often enough that it's statistically significant (for example, not 50%) then you've confirmed that there's a real effect happening.
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Post by Hexspa on Jul 29, 2018 7:33:14 GMT
All I can think of is you're hearing less of a higher range. Bass can be considered anything below 250Hz, for some people. In my case, I've been surprised how low 40 and 50Hz really are. Bass, as most people know it, is usually between 80-150Hz.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 8:10:23 GMT
It makes the speakers, how would say it, "muddy"? Like its missing lots of clarity overall, when I raise the bass response just a tad.
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Post by Michael Lawrence on Jul 29, 2018 13:54:01 GMT
Well that's perfectly logical actually. It's the low frequencies that require the most "work" from the amp and loudspeaker. If you're cranking them, you very likely are increasing the distortion throughout the entire bandwidth in a few different ways. REW can be configured to show distortion products and harmonic levels. Might be an interesting test. This is why it's generally good practice to use subs even if the full range speakers play down nearly as low.
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Post by Hexspa on Jul 31, 2018 0:01:44 GMT
Well that's perfectly logical actually. It's the low frequencies that require the most "work" from the amp and loudspeaker. If you're cranking them, you very likely are increasing the distortion throughout the entire bandwidth in a few different ways. REW can be configured to show distortion products and harmonic levels. Might be an interesting test. This is why it's generally good practice to use subs even if the full range speakers play down nearly as low. I thought the same thing. Good point about using the sub. An additional benefit of using a sub is that you can, in theory, balance your measured SPL response using one in conjunction with your mains. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 15:12:44 GMT
I've thought about a sub, but unfortunately it costs nearly 2k euros.
What are your opinions mixing with a sub? I see people often say that its better to mix without a sub.
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Post by Michael Lawrence on Jul 31, 2018 15:17:06 GMT
I can usually spot mixes that were done without a subwoofer simply because the person mixing has no idea what's going on at 30 Hz if their system won't reproduce it. A competent mixing engineer will always check what the mixes will sound like without a sub (either by muting the sub or with a simple high pass filter) just as they will check mixes in mono. Subs are not always an option for amateur mixers or home studios, of course. But in a professional context at least I think I would be skeptical of a mixing engineer with no sub in his or her rig.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 15:31:03 GMT
I've looked at that Focal sub, (to match the twins). But it goes "only" down to 30hz. Its still missing that 20-30hz region. Is there any reason it should go lower, i see some subs with frequency response starting at 18hz. Any reason NOT to buy that Focal sub because of that ?
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Post by Michael Lawrence on Jul 31, 2018 18:13:20 GMT
Remember that frequency response specs are incomplete without a tolerance. There is a big difference between -3 dB @ 30 Hz and -10 dB @ 30 Hz but they are both used as spec standards. That being said, response down to 30 Hz is respectable for a small sub.
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Post by Hexspa on Aug 1, 2018 0:24:47 GMT
The Yamaha HS sub doesn't totally suck. It goes down to 32Hz in my room, my graphs are around here somewhere. I think any sub is a good sub if you have no sub. You can always save up in the mean time.
Maybe I'm wrong but, for me, 90% of sub is just levels. Extremely precise transient, or envelope, response, ultra-low distortion, and other qualities don't seem that important to me. I'm a midrange guy, and mono, and I consider sub bass almost a necessary evil.
If you're a bass head then you probably think I'm crazy. I understand because that necessary evil is still necessary.
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