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Post by marlin on Nov 10, 2018 21:48:18 GMT
Something to aspire to :-) I picked you up on the parallels though but only roughly know that you can have 3 adjacent intervals on the circle of 5ths, or 6 including the minors, then rotate to the next three and cm would become the parallel of am thus you can pull in those chords to a progression. Where do the modes relate in this way? If you were in C I for example you have F 4th left and G 5th right. If you rotate counterclockwise you have Bb Eb Ab and the minor chords of which gm cm fm So you have the relative and the parallels to use. Is that different than building harmonious interval patterns from the modes or chords from different modes? Does the interval formula for the different modes add additional creative license? This is a bit advanced for me but I am advancing :-) Still working on memorizing the 12 keys and the associated chord forms in major and minor. Still know how to add a 7 if I reach for it. Pays to know the intervals in your chords and the intervals on the fret board. May seem boring doing scales but once in a while you can diverge and all of the sudden a melody might be born :-) Actually have a small blues scale memorized and if you throw in some flats here with a couple of 2 finger chords it can sound kind of old school melancholy. You can sneak by with chord forms but do you really know the notes and relationships to what your playing, rhetorical question. The underlying is what I am trying to go for.
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Post by Hexspa on Nov 11, 2018 10:28:37 GMT
I'm not clear on your question and I think that's partly due to the fact I've never much used the circle of fifths. The foundation of my theory knowledge comes from Harmony and Theory which is Musician's Institute's curriculum. They start you off with intervals, scales & diatonic keys. Then they add modes, seventh chords, symmetrical scales, harmonic and melodic minor. Finally, there is some info on chord substitutions like the tritone and modal interchange until they wrap up with modulation.
The simplest way I can put it is that any note can change to anything else, you can use virtually any chord at any time, and you have to use the techniques to understand them. With that in mind, keep doing basic things as advanced techniques are basic ones mastered. Check out that book if you aren't already using such a resource. Theory is like math: the better you understand the smaller atom-sized blocks, the easier it will be to chunk up to skyscrapers.
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Post by marlin on Nov 11, 2018 21:37:05 GMT
Yes I agree and love that " Advanced techniques are basic ones mastered" Almost Zen Buddhist. Just a little more specific I guess what I was asking was If each Major scale has 6 modes not counting the Major which is Ionian, do or can the minor scales have the same diversion of scales by the alternative arrangement of the formulas? Mathematically that is a lot of scales to choose from. It still fascinates me since there are only 12 notes. Would that be this www.amazon.com/dp/0793579910/?coliid=I27E4P1Y4ML9CL&colid=2I6FBWEC4TQCE&psc=0. Thanks for the communication. I like the circle of fifths as it is a graphic representation that stays imprinted. Seems everyday there is an application for it. It was invented by Pythagoras. Back to practicing and trying to apply. Cheers
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Post by Hexspa on Nov 12, 2018 10:20:59 GMT
Ok, so let's keep in mind that I'm primarily self-taught. Despite trying to adhere to a common standard, sometimes my words are off. Let me explain you about modes n stuff as I understand them.
First know the concept of a 'parent scale' or 'harmonic system'; I'll use these words interchangeably. Think of them like the color white and, contained inside, are the seven colors: ROY G BIV. In that sense, you can separate out each color. You can also recombine them from any color to make white again.
That simile corresponds to your standard 'diatonic system' coming out of the major scale. Some people like to think of everything as some kind of minor but I relate everything to the major scale. In my mind, relative minor is a subsidiary of the major scale. Naturally, any scale which uses the same notes as its parent scale, but using a different scale degree as a tonic, is a mode. It gets confusing though because even the major scale is itself a mode. Not only is it the first mode of regular diatonic system but it's also the third mode of Aeolian which is the relative minor. Does that make sense?
Like the cycle of fifths, it's all relative. It all cycles back onto itself like a snake eating its own tail. With that in mind, if you use relative minor, Aeolian, as your parent scale then yes, you just distribute the remaining six modes around it. Now, Lydian is your bVI instead of being the IV as it was in the relative major. Now you have a bVII7 instead of the major's V7.
This also applies to other harmonic systems like harmonic minor and melodic minor. Again, I don't use those much so I'd have to consult my chart but for sure you can use any of those modes as your fundamental chord. Scales and chords are the same thing. The least used modes for key centers are those containing non-perfect fifths like Locrian. Supposedly it happens but I haven't done any first-hand analysis to confirm that.
But yes, that's the book. But like I mentioned already: ear training. If you want to use Dorian as your key then you need to make sure you can hear that tonic. Once you get used to establishing the tonic in your head then that's pretty much carte blanche to do whatever you want.
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Post by marlin on Nov 12, 2018 18:33:07 GMT
Yes the way to relate the minor is to take it directly from the Major scale. I am going to have fun remembering all the interval shifts to form the several chord variations, Like sus aug dim dom . More challenging as you don't just add a 7th or just make a minor scale from the 6th degree of a major scale you have to ensure the interval steps are harmonious by lowering those particular degrees. I thought that the major scale was Ionian? The rest follow after that as far as naming the modes. Each having a particular flavor or sound. Like minor dominant melodic. I may try playing around with the different scales but things are generally in G major on the banjo right now. But of course if you can have that kind of an ear. Like in the beginning of the thread the A7 out of 30 chords on the chart it came from was the one that did not sound good to me as the A was missing. Yes I am learning on my own as well but as you are giving me info that's not exactly correct:-)
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Post by marlin on Nov 12, 2018 18:53:39 GMT
The A7 with the EAC#G sounds a lot better in that progression DGAA7Bm than that C#dim I can use the open 5th string which is the same as fretting the 1st 5th fret G but the 1st fret string G sounds a lot better.
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Post by Hexspa on Nov 13, 2018 2:13:32 GMT
Yes the way to relate the minor is to take it directly from the Major scale. I am going to have fun remembering all the interval shifts to form the several chord variations, Like sus aug dim dom . More challenging as you don't just add a 7th or just make a minor scale from the 6th degree of a major scale you have to ensure the interval steps are harmonious by lowering those particular degrees. I thought that the major scale was Ionian? The rest follow after that as far as naming the modes. Each having a particular flavor or sound. Like minor dominant melodic. I may try playing around with the different scales but things are generally in G major on the banjo right now. But of course if you can have that kind of an ear. Like in the beginning of the thread the A7 out of 30 chords on the chart it came from was the one that did not sound good to me as the A was missing. Yes I am learning on my own as well but as you are giving me info that's not exactly correct:-) Yes, major is ionian. Don't know what 'minor dominant melodic' is. Maybe I misunderstand you but the information I give you is exactly correct - about that, I have no doubt. My exact definitions may not conform to any one particular school but, in essence, what I have said is totally valid.
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Post by Hexspa on Nov 13, 2018 2:16:55 GMT
The A7 with the EAC#G sounds a lot better in that progression DGAA7Bm than that C#dim I can use the open 5th string which is the same as fretting the 1st 5th fret G but the 1st fret string G sounds a lot better. I'm totally unfamiliar with the banjo but, yes, how you voice a chord matters.
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Post by marlin stoegger on Nov 14, 2018 19:03:10 GMT
Interesting for the A7 as well is that there is a G 5th string and the chord can be played without fretting the Ist string on the 5th fret. But it still does not sound quite right. The c# does not progress to the bm nearly as nice as hitting that one g and then going back to d major again. Sorry I put all those scales names together. That would be the melodic scale, the minor scale and the dominant or major scale. It does look like I wrote them all as one invented scale . Although I learning that as Ethan Winer has stated, The rules are made to be broken. I did find that it is true that we become somewhat accustomed to the music we listen to and expect certain chord progressions. That's why when you here people say they don't like jazz, it may just be because there are a lot more complex arrangements that the ear is not used to hearing. Like if you watch the voice from a Baltic country there are musical sounds that are much different in the arrangement of a song that was a cover of a popular song. Quite a diversity out there. Something as simple for me right now as counting 1 and 2 and three and four, but on the one accentuating that one note on the one count helps keep time and sounds a little more fluid. So keeping the interval spacing relevant is important for a good progressions but I guise you can be creative with that as well. They say that melodic runs are good for going up and then you can change it up when you come down. I agree but you have to know the chords and especially the notes you are playing. That's why I love Carlos Santana. He has a few lesser known cds out there that I picked up.
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