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Post by patate91 on Aug 15, 2020 14:43:09 GMT
I'm interested about the expert's take on the spinorama and treated room.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the spinorama predicts how a speaker will behave in typical rooms, and if people will like it.
Spinorama predicts the frequency response based on room reflections/interaction. It looks accurate and to give a lot of usefull information.
But what happen to speakers with poorer spinorama (with good on axis measurement) in a well treated room? In well treated room the room's reflections/interaction are controlled.
Bonus question : What about the time domain? In room predictions never shows us the time domain information. Is it an issue?
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Post by Hexspa on Aug 15, 2020 17:26:44 GMT
I am only now hearing about this. The practical part of me says it's mostly irrelevant for my needs. My reasoning is that if you buy speakers which are proven for music production and treat your room, you don't need this measurement. On the other hand, it might have other uses that I'm not catching.
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Post by patate91 on Aug 15, 2020 17:44:48 GMT
I think on the manufacturer side is to produce speakers that are less room/reflections affected.
And for consumer to have an idea on how the speaker will behave in room even je not treated.
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Post by Hexspa on Aug 16, 2020 1:33:30 GMT
Maybe someone else can chime in.
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Post by rock on Aug 16, 2020 15:38:34 GMT
This is new to me too so I found this link www.sausalitoaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Interpreting-Spinorama-Charts.pdfSo yeah, it seems like it's, in part, a way to test for speaker off axis response which "they" state can make a difference in rooms untreated for RFZ. Yeah, that makes sense to me. But since we are supposedly treating our rooms for RFZ, this kind of speaker analysis would probably have less relevance. And as Hexspa points out, "if you buy speakers which are proven for music production" you probably don't need this measurement (much?) either. But if you are not going to treat your room, this measurement might be the next best thing? Regarding time domain, different speakers can be subject to things like driver time alignment and cone resonance hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Audio/spk2.html#:~:text=Loudspeaker%20Resonance&text=This%20non%2Duniform%20response%20changes,hangover%22%20with%20frequencies%20near%20resonance. But the room's modal ringing and reflections are probably always more damaging to fidelity. This is why we treat acoustically. |
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Post by patate91 on Aug 16, 2020 15:40:26 GMT
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Post by rock on Aug 16, 2020 15:52:04 GMT
Very interesting, thanks for sharing (I admit, I jumped through is pretty fast) but I think I got the main point. So yes, I agree a perfectly flat speaker response will have no resonances that create the imperfect frequency response in the first place.
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Post by patate91 on Aug 16, 2020 17:39:16 GMT
Very interesting, thanks for sharing (I admit, I jumped through is pretty fast) but I think I got the main point. So yes, I agree a perfectly flat speaker response will have no resonances that create the imperfect frequency response in the first place. Both method are opposed, but in the end a good "spinorama speaker" in a well treated room will give good performance. |
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Post by rock on Aug 16, 2020 20:03:00 GMT
No sure what you mean by "both method are opposed". Anyway, the real test (as always) is, can one hear the difference?
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Post by patate91 on Aug 16, 2020 20:05:40 GMT
No sure what you mean by "both method are opposed". Anyway, the real test (as always) is, can one hear the difference? Opposed : One method tries to remove reflections, the other tries to work with the reflections. |
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Post by patate91 on Aug 16, 2020 20:08:01 GMT
No sure what you mean by "both method are opposed". Anyway, the real test (as always) is, can one hear the difference? At this point I would be interested to see what the experts have to say. Does good spinorama speakers can be used to mix in untreated or little treated rooms. |
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Post by rock on Aug 17, 2020 14:03:33 GMT
Thanks for the clarification. Testing will provide some answers, but that's easier said than done. Both subjective listening tests and objective mic measurements like REW. It's a pretty big project because you'd need to use the same or identical rooms treated and untreated. I just skimmed the video; were there tests cited there?
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Post by patate91 on Aug 17, 2020 14:53:02 GMT
Thanks for the clarification. Testing will provide some answers, but that's easier said than done. Both subjective listening tests and objective mic measurements like REW. It's a pretty big project because you'd need to use the same or identical rooms treated and untreated. I just skimmed the video; were there tests cited there? I don't know if Harman published a lot of test they performed. Spinorama score is supposed to help to find consumers preferences. For what I've saw on other forum there's people who prefer envelopment over clarity and details. So with that in mind I doubt that mixing engineer will prefer the same. Btw speakers like Neumann KH80 DSP and Genelec 8030 Studio monitors perform extremly well at spinorama score |
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Post by Hexspa on Aug 18, 2020 16:26:48 GMT
I should first state what everyone here probably knows: I'm not qualified to give an expert opinion on much, if anything.
However, speakers are omnidirectional radiators - as per Ethan - more and more as frequency drops. That means those frequencies are going to hit boundaries. Those boundaries are reflective in an untreated space. Direct sound + reflected sound = comb filtered ambient sound. Rooms also have resonances which no loudspeaker can counter; save for some active absorbers I've heard about but have never seen in action.
Therefore, 'spinorama' might indicate a relative edge from one speaker to another. To be sure, Genelec and even Yamaha in their lowly HS50 implement room-countering features. It's just that, the speaker's main job isn't to correct for the room just as the room's job isn't to correct the speaker.
Yes, some people prefer a larger sound stage and diffusion is the answer to that; clarity warrants more absorption. Again, this is a room materials question. But, hey, what do I know. The last thing I'll mention is that Ethan cites Floyd Toole as an expert so make of that what you will.
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Post by patate91 on Aug 18, 2020 18:24:11 GMT
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