brak
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by brak on Oct 29, 2020 16:31:03 GMT
Sorry, I'm new to the forum and I just realized that maybe I need to tag people for them to see I responded to them. So sorry for failing to do so @pasim , rock , and Hexspa . I'll be looking forward to your responses.
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Post by Hexspa on Oct 29, 2020 23:33:08 GMT
Based on your description of the room's layout, I suspect you haven't fully digested the material linked to in the stickies. My main clue is that you never mentioned 38% with the desk nor realized that corners are bad places for desks.
Please review those and your questions should be answered.
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brak
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by brak on Oct 30, 2020 1:52:48 GMT
Hexspa I actually mentioned the 38% thing a few times in my posts - such as below: Also where I would be sitting would actually be at the 38% point between those walls. I did the desk trim in my layout. I show how its at the 38% point as well as at the corner of an equilateral triangle. The horizontal line going across the room n-s is the 38% line. And I also recognized in my posts the issue with corners - in fact the whole idea of the "cubical idea" is to address it: Would having it in the corner like that be ok if I get a partition wall to go on the empty side of the desk - kind of like a cubical? So one of my lines of questioning is the balance of pro-con between: symmetry of the desk's placement, vs being at the 38% mark, vs being in the largest mixing area possible. Which are the lesser of these evils? Sorry if I wasn't being clear.
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Post by rock on Oct 30, 2020 4:50:50 GMT
View AttachmentHere is with the desk in the center of the east wall. View AttachmentHere is with the desk in the center of the east wall with the mattress between it and the wall. The horizontal line going across the room n-s is the 38% line. Sorry I didn't reply till now but my suggestion would be to favor the desk and listening position in the center bottom of the plan. The mattress won't make or break the set up so against the wall should be fine. In the corner, as Hexspa point's out is not really the best place for your mixing space. I understand you want the space for other functions but you need set your priorities. You are on a forum here were we generally give the mix position top priority but you may have other considerations. Truth be told, my own space is set up for full band practice and live tracking set up and does not give priority to the mix position either but I have associates and colleagues (AKA other drunken bandmates and musicians) that have better mixing rooms than I do so we can collaborate on our projects. BTW, if you want to mix on headphones, you solve lots (all) of your acoustical problems...but you'll miss a lot too. It's good to have a couple of good rooms you can listen to your mixes in to verify their translation...at least until you're confident your mixing room set-up does consistently render mixes that translate well. You mentioned foam. Please consider building (or buying) absorbers like Ethan describes with either rigid fiberglass or mineral wool.
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brak
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by brak on Oct 30, 2020 4:58:02 GMT
By the way Hexspa , I read your OOO post from 2016 - which I thought was really cool. I was wondering why you had doing an Room EQ analysis at #20, and not higher in the list. I was thinking of ordering a liner con. mic in order to do a reading before moving forward in my plans, but after reading your post I put hat on hold. If it more appropriate for me to make a new thread asking this, or doing a necro post, please let me know. Also in that post you said: Dear forum, I ask because Ethan has emphasized many (if not all) of these at different points but repeatedly expounds about symmetry. He's also told me directly that treatment in a non-ideally-shaped room is better than an ideally-shaped room with no treatment. Well then what about volume? What about parallel walls, etc? So I'm trying to absorb and process all of this. So in terms of symmetry, what I understand is that the reason for it is to not throw out of wack the stereo balance. So would putting up a wall to enclose the mix desk fix that?
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brak
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by brak on Oct 30, 2020 5:15:31 GMT
Sorry I didn't reply till now but my suggestion would be to favor the desk and listening position in the center bottom of the plan. The mattress won't make or break the set up so against the wall should be fine. In the corner, as Hexspa point's out is not really the best place for your mixing space. I understand you want the space for other functions but you need set your priorities. You are on a forum here were we generally give the mix position top priority but you may have other considerations. Truth be told, my own space is set up for full band practice and live tracking set up and does not give priority to the mix position either but I have associates and colleagues (AKA other drunken bandmates and musicians) that have better mixing rooms than I do so we can collaborate on our projects. BTW, if you want to mix on headphones, you solve lots (all) of your acoustical problems...but you'll miss a lot too. It's good to have a couple of good rooms you can listen to your mixes in to verify their translation...at least until you're confident your mixing room set-up does consistently render mixes that translate well. You mentioned foam. Please consider building (or buying) absorbers like Ethan describes with either rigid fiberglass or mineral wool. No apologies needed - I appreciate any time any of you give to assist with this. The prioritizing of things is my current hang-up. I realize that many of my goals are antagonistic with each other - so that doesn't help. lol I just ran the Room Mode Calculator. My room's ratio is 1 : 1.29 : 1.86 , which is pretty close to the one recommend ratio of 1 : 1.30 : 1.90. So this would support even more the south wall. But I wouldn't be at the 38% line. So what is more important: the room ratios or the 38% line?
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Post by rock on Oct 30, 2020 13:38:14 GMT
The 38% is a starting point recommendation. It theoretically is the distance where the front/back room mode is least prominent but fine tuning with acoustic measurements may show you there's a better spot. Your speaker placement will figure into the equation along with room treatment. Did you find Hexspa's order of operations? Check out his videos!
Most of us cant do anything about ratios and we just have to work with what we've got but it's good to know what you're dealing with. If you're building new or tearing down walls, it's a different story.
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brak
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by brak on Oct 30, 2020 16:43:16 GMT
The 38% is a starting point recommendation. It theoretically is the distance where the front/back room mode is least prominent but fine tuning with acoustic measurements may show you there's a better spot. Your speaker placement will figure into the equation along with room treatment. Did you find Hexspa's order of operations? Check out his videos! Most of us cant do anything about ratios and we just have to work with what we've got but it's good to know what you're dealing with. If you're building new or tearing down walls, it's a different story. Do you have a link to a video of his you would suggest I watch? What about my cubical I idea? Any thoughts on it? (Just to recap I put the desk flush against the wall next to the corner, build a wall on the exposed side of the desk going out to what ever length is needed, and plaster it with acoustic treatment. Its basically the idea of those microphone isolation shields, but instead of the microphone being in the middle it would be my mixing desk (obviously a lot bigger lol).
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Post by Hexspa on Oct 31, 2020 0:10:59 GMT
Ok, so I apologize but I didn't see those posts for some reason. Maybe I wasn't paying attention. Second, with the order of operations, I think I remember asking Ethan which order those are in terms of importance and I think he said that they're all important. That's an old post so I don't know. Let me read the rest of this.
EDIT: This is too complicated for me; I like things simple.
It comes down to one thing: what's your priority?
If drums are your priority then put them in the best spot. If critical listening is then you know what to do. The room is small and needs lots of treatment if you want a great result. Again, is great sound your priority or great ergonomics? If both then what do you sacrifice?
38% starting point, symmetry, you can't always have everything - especially not at once. Maybe use a smaller drum set or less drums or suppliment with electronic ones.
I see that rock already mentioned this. My apologies for not wanting to comb through everything. Like I said: keep it simple.
EDIT 2: I just talked about this with my lady. We both agree that the number one mistake beginners make is trying to drink the whole ocean in one gulp. While that makes a nice koan, it's terrible for practicality.
If I'm not fully reflecting the content of this thread, please forgive me. Regardless, my advice usually to get a baseline measurement then change one thing at a time. There are just too many 'gotcha's in this post - doors, people downstairs, ac ducts, etc. all in a small space.
This is genuinely my best advice.
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brak
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by brak on Nov 1, 2020 5:09:00 GMT
Hexspa No problem. I appreciate you taking the time to read and reply... and even running things past your lady. Yeah, I was concerned about the thread morphing into the thread of 1001 topics. lol So I guess I should wrangle things back down. I probably should explain a bit my philosophy on these things we are discussing: There are three ways to do something 1. The most valid, optimal, perfect way 2. The most invalid, horrible, counter-productive way 3. The middle path, things that are good enough without causing harm Or like a person once told me, "don't let the perfect get in the way of the good" So with these things in this thread I am going with option 3. So I want a mixing environment that is good enough to get the job done, but not so bad that it is basically pointless and moot to have. And I fully realize, that due to the many variables/issues I'm dealing with, that a lot of concessions and compromises will need to be made. So can you tell me what your thoughts are on my "mixing cubical" idea. I know its not the suggested/optimal idea - but can it be made to work? So from your post I assume something I need to do is run REW. Would using my Blue Yeti mic be good enough, or do I need to by a Behringer ECM8000?
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Post by Hexspa on Nov 1, 2020 6:55:51 GMT
Mixing cubicle? Is that where the desk is in the corner? There was another fellow on here who did something similar. He used thick treatment but got a good result. At least on paper it was acceptable for him. I don't recall him doing any follow up. You need an omni linear response condenser to perform accurate acoustic measurements. If you treat the whole room then you'll be better off regardless where you sit. Positioning matters but, like I've said, we all had to start somewhere. Usually where we start is worse than where we end up. Better to have something than hem and haw and have nothing. It's not like you're welding this position to the frame of your house; you can change it up later.
Nike, man.
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brak
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by brak on Nov 1, 2020 16:08:07 GMT
Hexspa, Dude.... something you said in your last post helped lead me to have a eureka moment! But first, thank you for the link to the other thread - it was really helpful, as he was trying to do basically what I am in terms of room set-up. Ok... back to my eureka moment......... I remember when I was a lad, back in the days of cassettes and CDs, reading the liners while listening to music. I had always wondered why so make albums would be recorded at one studio, and mixed at an other. I would be like "ummmmm..... why not do everything at one studio? " So this past month while reading/researching on acoustic treatments that it finally dawned on me - one studio was more geared to tracking/recording and the other studio was more geared to mixing. So while this new found knowledge was marinading in my mind I read your comment "It's not like you're welding this position to the frame of your house; you can change it up later." I am not going to be mixing and tracking at the same time, nor mixing and rehearsing at the same time. My mixing desk has wheels at the bottom that makes it easy to move around - with basically no effort. So there is no reason, not even laziness, to not just move the mixing desk to a better position when doing actual mixing! So I first need to figure out what things would not be easily movable (like the drums, or shelving, etc) which would be the "permanent" fixtures, and what things I can easily just shift around when mixing time comes. Thank you so much man! To Be Continued........
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brak
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by brak on Nov 1, 2020 16:15:07 GMT
Hexspa I did some googling about my Blue Yeti... recordinghacks.com/microphones/Blue-Microphones/YetiIt can do omni, but it looks that when you do the freq response gets all wonky. Would using the xy stereo setting (which I assume would be emulating what I would actually hear since I don't have ears on my forehead nor on the back), which has a much flatter freq response be viable?
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Post by rock on Nov 1, 2020 18:21:41 GMT
I would guess omni is best for acoustic tests but you also should use a mic designed for acoustic measurements. I'm not sure what you expect but your room response will look very much different than those nice smooth graphs from the manufacturer.
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brak
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by brak on Nov 1, 2020 19:56:32 GMT
Hexspa and rock, I created a new post for the topic of what mic to use, as I feel it should be its own thread.
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