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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 3, 2020 0:44:22 GMT
Hi there I am creating a recording space in a very small space and am looking for advice on a couple of things. about the space ( see attached Sketchup drawings) this will be a room within a room in my basement, my teenage kids ( lovers of loud music,,,, I really don’t know where they get this from have their bedrooms right above, the floor is concrete, plumbing and freezers are in the big rectangular room next to the recording space so some sound is generated there. I know nothing about acoustics and treatment! question #1: when I build the new wall( see drawings), in order to save some space, do you think that I could leave the studs open to the inside and fill them with mineral wool and clad with fabric to obtain some trapping and still get sound proofing? would it help if I did 2 layers of drywall on the outside of the new wall spaced 1” ? I looked at the chart and illustrations from Goldman and it seems like 1 inch of dead airspace could be effective www.bobgolds.com/WallCharts/QuadTripleDoubleLeafSTC.htmAny suggestions for treating this room with the “trap wall “ in mind, with or without depending how you rule? it has to function as a recording booth for various instruments and vocals and potentially drums. Question #2: take a look at my ceiling detail would you change anything to get max sound proofing?, I am floating the new ceiling to decouple it from the existing joists, but do not want (if possible) to lower the ceiling more that 1 inch from the existing joists as it is already a low ceiling. Question #3: would the new floating ceiling benefit from the ceiling joists being placed on some sort of rubber? I am not planning on using fasteners for the joists ( I spent many years as a carpenter and can make this work) I always experiment with things but with limited time to record this winter i just need to have somebody tell me what to do so I don't waste a bunch of time. I would appreciate any thoughts and designs. Best Lars Durango Colorado
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 3, 2020 0:46:46 GMT
Here is the last image of the ceiling assembly.
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Post by rock on Dec 3, 2020 4:33:37 GMT
First off, in general, we really don't get too much into the "sound proofing" aspect here but will share what I have gathered. For the straight dope, see www.amazon.com/Home-Recording-Studio-Build-Like/dp/143545717X/ref=asc_df_143545717X/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312039480609&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2285422797390439021&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9021427&hvtargid=pla-619888124317&psc=1 (Rod should really give me a cut on his book royalties ha ha) For the walls, if you leave the studs open you will forgo the isolation you will get from the interior DW (double DW better) but leaving DW off and filling w/mineral wool will treat the acoustics of the room. At this point, I will state sound transmission (sound proofing) and acoustic treatment are two very different animals and must be approached as separate entities. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME! I will say your #2 floating ceiling looks very good. From what I know, you don't need rubber or resilient channel if you are supporting your ceiling from the inner wall but a double layer of drywall will improve isolation. Also compressed mineral wool under the floor plates of your inner walls will isolate the whole "inner room" system. WAIT! I just noticed you don't have an inner wall and your block wall will support both floor and ceiling joists. Not the best situation so yes, you need to isolate your ceiling joists from the block wall. Using RC channel for the ceiling DW is good here too. IIRC, Rod recommends filling the ceiling and larger wall spaces with "fluffy" instead of mineral wool in the ceiling, but read his book. For " sound proofing" (there really is no such thing) it's really just sound transmission isolation which is just a matter of "HOW MUCH" that is, it's not binary.
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 3, 2020 20:52:36 GMT
Thanks so much for your response. I have realized that I need to beef up the new wall and knowing that I need to sacrifice the extra floor space, what would you recommend I do in terms of constructing a wall system, staggered studs or a double wall, if a double wall will give less sound transmission, how many layers of dry wall and where? is there still an option to go with a "Trap wall " on the inside and obtain somewhat low sound transmission. Also now that I am beefing up the wall system I am wondering what to do about the door, would you recommend that I modify a solid core slab door, or hang 2 of those? any link on how to make a studio door? I really appreciate your expertise Best Lars
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Post by rock on Dec 4, 2020 3:49:14 GMT
Like I said, you have two separate issues: Sound transmission and acoustic treatment; never the twain shall meet. So deal with your sound transmission/isolation issues first. Then deal with your acoustic treatment of the interior of the room. When you're designing the room dimensions you have the opportunity to adjust interior dimensions which determine room modes. With your "tiny room" you are at a significant disadvantage so a critical eye to this may improve things but if you can use the longer room, you might be better off for an acoustic space. The mantra is M-A-M (mass - air - mass) use only 3 sections. www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk (Skip to 1:19min) Since you have a mass section of concrete block, you only need an "air" section which gets filled with fluffy insulation and the last (3rd) section of mass (use single or double dry wall layer as required) attached to a stud wall but only one the side facing into the room. If the wall is a basement where there is no sound on the other side, you don't need isolation but you need to determine the level of isolation you need and if you don't isolate, how sound will travel through the rigid (non air) members into other rooms in the building. So if you decide you don't need extra isolation for your walls, you can go with your idea of and open studs. If you do, consider why you need studs at all! If they don't support a load, why not use 1 x's instead of 2x4's etc. AND consider spacing them away from the wall 4" (8" total) so you can get better LF absorption. Also, angle your framing across the corners for bass traps. Or course use solid core doors and double them if you need the isolation, I think Class C fire doors fill the bill. (when we built a studio years back we found a home center with a stack of fake wood grain fire doors for $10 or $15 each, they were all scratched but what a deal!!!) You can also get special acoustic floor sweeps. (my kid used to work with a guy who sells them; let me know and I'll get the contact info. GET ROD's book! (and Ethan's too)
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Post by Hexspa on Dec 4, 2020 10:20:33 GMT
Ya, Ethan's book is pretty good. Don't remember a ton on sound isolation in it but it's my go-to reference for all the stuff I can't keep in my head.
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 4, 2020 22:19:28 GMT
1:19 THEN SHALL THOU COUNT TO 3!!!! HYSTERICAL!!!! I love me some Monty Python, I grew up in Denmark and miss the dark british humor... so thank you for exercising my belly. I have some restraints in how I can move the new wall around,,,, I can't move the door to the storage space next door and thus it will be in the recording space and I would have to make a beefy door system to keep sound from freezers and plumbing isolated. also my ceiling will be just around 7' tall no matter what I do ( unless I dig out 2 feet , which I have certainly considered, but every time I think of doing it I decide that I would MUCH MUCH rather play my guitar, upright bass, trombone, banjo, or sing or write a new song, etc etc...) so with that being the constant, I am wondering what apart from space I gain from a bigger space? in terms of just sound, is it going to give me an amazing advantage having a 21'9" x 9'6 room with a 7' ceiling vs the 7'7" x 9'6" with 7' ceiling I was planning?? I could deal with the door to the storage room I guess then I could go for the proportions 1, 1.25, 1.6 ( I can't remember where I read that,,,,, does that make sense so with a 7' ceiling the width should be 8.75' and length 11.2' ) when you record vocals do you want trap in front or behind you?? I did read somewhere that a trap should be hung and spaced 1" from the ceiling for vocals in rooms with low ceilings.. Is the 7' ceiling gonna mess up my recordings? does this project make any sense given that I have that low of a ceiling ? here is a drawing of the new configuration:
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Post by rock on Dec 5, 2020 14:53:38 GMT
The idea about room proportions is so room modes are spaced somewhat evenly and don't "pile up". 2 or more dimensions that are the same or very close or a multiple like double will cause room modes to coincide. This is to be avoided. Here is a site you can use to see how you room dims work: amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=11.25&w=9.55&h=7&ft=true&r60=0.6 You'll see I plugged in your dims above but you can see how other combinations work. You will always have room modes, it's easier to treat them if they are spread out and not extreme. In general larger rooms are more desirable. Small rooms can tend to sound "boxy" but if you don't mind a dead room, it's probably the best you can do. Treating the ceiling is good because you also have modes and reflections from the ceiling. Spacing an absorber up to equal it's thickness will improve it's LF performance. Thicker = more LF absorption. (this is all basic stuff you should know if you read the material) If you room is dead, it is easier to get better recordings in a small room but you will probably want to add digital reverb etc. With a larger space, diffusion can be used too. Please see Ethan's video on diffusors! In fact, make sure you read all of Ethan's material. You can find it in the "Sticky" "READ THIS FIRST" at the top of the forum. When you record anything including voice with a mic you probably want to avoid reflections entering the mic. A uni-directional mic doesn't pick up much from the back; it's all in the front and a bit less on the sides. So, if you want to reduce wall reflections, keep reflecting surfaces away from the front and sides of the mic. Record in the middle of the room and favor the front of the mic facing the more distant, treated surfaces. You'll want to experiment but with enough treatment you'll find something that works. Moveable panels on stands are very handy. Will a 7' ceiling mess up recordings? IMHO you're gonna want a dead room and close mic to avoid a boxy sound and use digital reverb etc. A bigger room with a higher ceiling will give you more flexibility with your mic placement/distance and you could play more with the "room sound" but you have to deal with what you have.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2020 15:41:14 GMT
Is those 11.25ft x 9.55ft x 7ft your room dimensions WITHOUT the soundproofing?
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 5, 2020 15:56:07 GMT
Thanks so much! yeah this is the story of being homo sapiens,,, we have to make what we have work. so assuming I would go with those dimensions how would you choose to treat it if it was yours to get it where it was dead? I am having a hard time making sense of the calculator do you have any resources to understanding it better? I would love to learn all about this, truly, right now though I need to get this built, then I will dig deeper in the theory so I can get started recording my tunes, or at lest decent demos, I believe that I have a decent window this winter to focus on it. So many songs finished and so little time to do something serious with them,,, does that sound like midlife crisis? probably I have plenty of those. regardless I have to keep being creative to fill up the tank so I can do other not so desirable things in life.. here are couple of my tunes. Once again thank you so much, I appreciate this kind of community and willingness to help, and at this stage of my life I know that there are no stupid questions as I always take time to explain things I am good at to others. Here are a couple of my tunes just because..... Art is to be shared. Dinosaur was recorded in my living room ( notice the nice 10' ceiling and Patches was recorded in amy neighbors house. Best Lars
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 5, 2020 15:57:34 GMT
Hi Pasim. that is the dimensions after sound proofing, ready for treatment.
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Post by rock on Dec 5, 2020 16:58:15 GMT
I'm unclear on exactly how you plan to build the walls on the left and bottom of your plan. I see a slightly thicker line between the concrete and stud wall. Does that indicate a sheet of DW there? It also looks like you have abandoned the idea of the open stud wall. Yes? Also, it seems you have determined you need isolation on what appears to be outside walls on the left and the bottom. Yes? You wrote: "I would love to learn all about this, truly, right now though I need to get this built... Here's what I think: www.pyragraph.com/2013/05/good-fast-cheap-you-can-only-pick-two/
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 5, 2020 17:17:37 GMT
Left and bottom are already framed, insulated, drywalled and plastered., the wall on the right is CMU block. I realize that since I am not going to be able to insulate and make a new ceiling in the rest of that rectangle ( my daughters room is right above ) that I have to do some sort of double wall to eliminate noise between the new studio and her room. If I can obtain enough sound isolation with an open stud wall, It may make sense to do that? obviously I have a rug I can lay on the floor, or buy some carpet etc,,,any recommendations?
Yup the article with the diagram is so spot on, It does take some maturing as a human being to fully give in to this, or be real to oneself and others about capacity. Best Lars
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Post by rock on Dec 5, 2020 17:31:17 GMT
Like I said before, you have two separate issues. Isolation must be done first especially if your treatment is installed and attached. One way to determine isolation levels is to simply play music or a test tome sweep and measure in the adjacent room. Reversing the speaker and test mic locations should yield similar results if not the same.
REW is a free PC/Mac acoustic measureSW but it sounds like you don't have the time to get into all of that.
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 5, 2020 18:25:47 GMT
Yeah it makes sense to test it,,,, so with that in mind I think I am thinking of different wall configurations that will allow me to slap an extra sheet of dry wall inside the room vs keeping it open studs and insulation with fabric.I am wondering if you have an opinion on which of the below systems will be best suited to the room and the challenges it presents? Also how much dead air space would you leave in the center of the wall? Thanks so much,,, I will conquer this thanks to you. Best Lars _
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