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Post by rock on Dec 11, 2020 20:52:27 GMT
First I'd should make it clear if I have not already that, I am in no way an expert, that's Ethan and even he, IIRC, has deferred questions on "soundproofing". If you find my suggestions agree with other verification, that's great but please don't take what I say as the final word.
OK, with that out of that way, I think recording rooms have different needs than listening/control rooms. Things like listening position and all the reflections and the speaker positions, "sound stage" and imaging are somewhat irrelevant when it comes to recording in a "small" room. You ask about the length. Two things come to mind 1. The primary modal frequency goes lower. That's usually a good thing because it has less influence on the band we are trying to control, especially when it comes to playback and mixing. I don't think it's as much of an issue with recording but it can't hurt. 2. Reflections from boundaries; the farther the wall, the less the relative level reflections. You'll still be closer to the side walls and ceiling but I'd think it's an improvement. 3. Well, I just remembered you still need treatment so a larger room will probably need more treatment ($$) so cost goes up.
Moveable traps are good...no Great. Yes use them. I have 4" thick mineral wool, open weave cloth on both sides. Put them where you need them.
Green Glue, from all I've heard works...but at a cost. If you have not read Rod Gervais' book yet, I'll tell you I read he wrote he feels he can get as good sound transmission attenuation by using "regular" materials at lower cost. Who knows? Maybe he changed his mind?
What do you mean "cleats"? Are they for holding the DW in place while the GG sets up?
Something I forgot to mention is that for increasing mass to the floor above, adding layers on top of the floor is easier (if it's feasible) than DW from under in between the joists. Also, heavy carpet and thick pad can of course help too.
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 11, 2020 22:14:27 GMT
I haven't managed to get Rod Gervais book yet, but I gathered from articles that the drywall is attached to the joists with finish nails on an angle to the joists , then backer rod is installed and the edges are caulked, the cleats are attached ( if I have that right.) I do think that shorter cleats should do the trick although I would probably make a couple of T-posts to hold the DW in place, then caulk and cleats,,,, and yes, its gonna be a lot of upside down work. Unfortunately I do not have the option to add mass on the other side of the assembly. what kind of cloth do you use for traps?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2020 23:44:52 GMT
Quick reminder here, I wouldn't personally put that much effort(and money?) on such a small place. You cant bend physics, and that room is just too small to be accurate, assuming thats your goal...
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 12, 2020 0:39:38 GMT
Hiyo Pasım. one HUGE thing for me is to isolate sound between the studio and the upstairs where my teenage kids live, jump, stomp, and play loud music, that will be one of the biggest items. I will get into mixing eventually but the recording is most important, the rest I can send off to experts, I will strive to make the space as good as possible. Best Lars
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Post by rock on Dec 12, 2020 1:08:08 GMT
Oh, the cleats, yeah. I think the cleats are just for keeping the drywall in place so I imagine if they are a little shorter but cover the whole length you should be OK but that's just my best guess.
Any cloth you can easily blow through will be fine, not tight woven. Speaker grille cloth, burlap are examples. I have used "Economy non-woven landscape fabric" for cheap non-permanent use. Acoustically it's fine but I don't recommend it because if it's exposed to direct sunlight, it gradually decomposes after a couple years. But in a darkened or artificially lit room, seems to last for years on end...did I mention it's cheap? LOL
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 12, 2020 3:40:31 GMT
Cheap is one of my favorite meals
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2020 11:14:13 GMT
Ok. But don't be dissapointed with your results when you indeed record.. Vocal booths in "real" studios are bigger than your room. And they dont sound "good" they are there in the first place, if band wants to tracks while vocalist sings..
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 12, 2020 11:35:03 GMT
Pasim what do you mean by : Ok. But don't be dissapointed with your results when you indeed record.. Vocal booths in "real" studios are bigger than your room. And they dont sound "good" they are there in the first place, if band wants to tracks while vocalist sings Can you elaborate so I can understand ?
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Post by rock on Dec 12, 2020 16:17:49 GMT
Here's a video I've seen a few times but you might get some ideas from it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSX14geMw-c There's a lot more so please spend some time with them. Ethan does have a TON of info you can navigate from the sticky on the top of this forum but I'll give you the link: the-audio-expert.freeforums.net/thread/4/read-firstI don't know if you have read all the links but if everyone did, I think members would have a lot fewer questions. BTW, Ethan also recommends Rod's book here and also endorses Green Glue. I don't get over to Ethan's material as often as I should but if anyone skips it, it's a real mistake!
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Post by rock on Dec 13, 2020 14:52:12 GMT
Pasim what do you mean by : Ok. But don't be dissapointed with your results when you indeed record.. Vocal booths in "real" studios are bigger than your room. And they dont sound "good" they are there in the first place, if band wants to tracks while vocalist sings Can you elaborate so I can understand ? Well I can't answer for Pasim but I do have an opinion about recording and spaces and it's pretty simple. The closer your mic to the source, the less the room will influence your recording. Conversely, the farther your mic from the source, the more the room will influence your recording. Pretty simple. So it's true that if your "room sound" is small and boxy, your recording in that room will sound small and boxy if you allow the "room sound" to be in balance with the direct sound. Most of our home recording spaces are far from studio quality in part because they are often smaller. (I have to think that any one that has ever recorded before has eventually discovered this for themselves... maybe not???) As I have said before, we need to work with what we have. We all need to understand what we have control over and what we just have to accept (like the Serenity Prayer). The good news is that with digital DAWs and multi-tracking we do in fact have very much control! So especially for home recording, I think recording clean, dry tracks is a good foundation for building a good mix. my 2 cents.
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 16, 2020 19:23:57 GMT
OK it's decided, I am going to sound proof the whole ceiling, meaning that the finished room is going to be 21'9"x 9'2", what kind of treatment do you recommend I use? I have Rockwool safe and sound to use for bass traps. Im curious what you would do to the room in terms of treatment? Foam, curtains etc etc. Yes Ethan has a bunch of useful info, thanks fo r the link.
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Post by rock on Dec 16, 2020 20:26:04 GMT
So I went back to the amroc calculator amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=21.75&w=9.17&h=7&ft=true&r60=0.6 to see where your modes are and the recommendations they have. They say you'll need 107 to 115 sqft of absorption, that's about 14 4x8 panels but my guess would be to double that but you could start with 100 SqFt or so. I'd use rigid FG or mineral wool 4" or thicker. 4" 4x8 panels for the wall and clouds. Normally you'd space your panels 4" from the wall but since you're ceiling is so low, you may not be able to space that much from the ceiling... but good if you can. Bass traps go in the corners...you have 12 not just 4. Hopefully you read all the threads, at least the current ones cause when it come to treatment, everyone has the same problem. Like I mentioned REW, I won't write is again. AND Ethan has a whole section on it too.
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 16, 2020 20:42:12 GMT
Thanks Rock,, I have been crosseyed from reading and some of it is slowly making it through the thicker part of my cranium. What about foam, as in that stuff people stick on the walls?? or is this project just going to need be all thick absorption like you are describing.... I am thinking of making some on stands to move around in order to " make the room smaller" if needed, if say i set those up 15 feet from the front wall would the traps have to be wall to wall and floor to ceiling?, or is is partially fine? Im rolling to Home Depot to pick up drywall tonight and the GG is arriving any day now.........Aaaaaah ceiling work,,, I used to own a plaster company and have spent a few thousand hours working ceilings, I do NOT miss it at all!
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Post by trombosaurus on Dec 16, 2020 20:45:03 GMT
Oh,,, when you say 14 4x8 panels,,, you mean 4" by 8" right? do you have any pictures of this
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Post by rock on Dec 16, 2020 23:25:48 GMT
Sorry, got my numbers all wrong. I mean a 4 inch thick panel, 2(two)feet wide by 4(four)feet long. That's one typical size of many "sound control" panels made of rigid fiberglass and mineral wool. They do come in other widths and thicknesses. I would not bother with foam, it's more expensive for the same size. If you can afford it, you should use 4" thick min. spaced 4" off the wall for broadband absorption. As far as drywall, I'm sure you know how to do it but Rod Gervais describes "acoustical installation" which is not used in regular construction. If you go to amazon, you can preview some of his book. If you don't do it right, it wont work as good and you'll waste time,$$.
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