jonas
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Post by jonas on Feb 3, 2023 21:16:48 GMT
Hi!
I'd like to get some help with deciding on a few key points when designing my new studio space.
1. Deciding how to treat the ceiling. 2. Ideal listening position and acoustic treatment VS. placement of furniture, instruments and gear
It is a small room that will have to fill a few different roles.
Recording room
Mixing room
Small Office
Background
I'm migrating from a larger recording room (40 m² or 430 sq ft) to a smaller home studio (17.6 m² or 189 sq ft).
In my new home I also have an unheated garage (37,9 m² or 407 sq ft) in the garden, that could be turned into a recording/mixing studio. That would of course be ideal as I would not disturb my family and a larger space. However I don't have that kind of budget as of now because it would require installing a heating system and thermally isolating walls of the garage. This garage was built in maybe 1920-1930 or so.
So my plan is to concentrate most of my efforts on the small room as this is where I will be able to record and mix all year round. If I get any leftover acoustic material, I can use that in the garage and perhaps have summertime recording sessions and jams there.
The small room
This is what the small room looks like empty: 
Measurements in the drawing are in meters but for you imperial guys;
- North wall = 12' 3"
- Western wall = 17' 7.4"
- Southern wall incl door = 8' 3.2"
- Norteast wall = 11'
- Southeast wall = 6' 6.7"
Acoustic material
I have the following acoustic material:
- 27 Bass traps in wood frames. Sized 100x65x10 cm or 40"x26"x4"
(115kg/m³ RockWool w. FRK)
- 3 Small bass traps in wood frames. Sized 50*65*10 cm or 20"x26"x4"
(These were previously used as tri corner traps.)
- 9 absorbers in wood frames. Sized 100x60x10 cm or 40"x20"x4"
(65kg/m³ RockWool w. felt backing)
- 7 more boards/sheets of 115kg/m³ RockWool w. FRK that are still in original packaging.
If needed I am open to buying more material of a different kind, such as fluffy fibreglass for treating the ceiling.
1. Ceiling treatment
I was first thinking of just using my 4" absorbers in wood frames spread out evenly under the ceiling with a 4" air gap, but after I watching Ethans video on the Ultimate Small Mixing & Mastering Room, I'm contemplating constructing some kind of framework, in the ceiling, to fill with with either fluffy fibreglass or some lower density sheets.
Pros and cons of using absorbers/repurposed bass traps in wood frames
- I only have 9 absorbers, and they are also needed for reflection points and possibly other walls or as drumbaffles.
- I have lots of bass traps but these have aluminum foil on them and are lot higher density. So I'm not sure how effective they would be in deadening the ceiling. Could repurpose them by removing the aluminum backing and they would perform better as absorbers? My bass traps are about twice as high in density compared to my absorbers (115kg/m³ vs. 65kg/m³ )
- I havn't tried to drill in the ceiling yet so I don't know what it is made of and how safe it is to hang heavy bass traps there. I don't want them to fall down and injure someone or crash down on expensive gear.
+ If I could repurpose some bass traps then I would not need to buy more acoustic material material.
- But removing the FRK would potentially be messy and density would still not be ideal for absorbtion.
Pros and cons of contructing a ceiling framework for fluffy fibreglass/ or lower density sheets
- the ceiling would perhaps become a bit lower then when using aborber panels.
- have never done it before so not sure how much work it is or how to do it
- more expensive as I then need to buy more acoustic material + wood for framework + cloth to cover
+ better coverage (no gaps between panels)
+ potentially hang safer from the ceiling
+ potentially look nicer
+ I would save bass traps that could be used in garage in summer
2. Ideal listening position and acoustic treatment VS Furniture and instrument placement
Getting everything to fit in such a small space is a challenge and compromises will have to be made.
Empty room:
Example setup with piano, desk, organ, bookshelf, cupboard, amps and rack:
The app I used for drawing, did not have models of guitar amps and organs unfortunately.
So the three guitar/bass amps by the window are represented by small tables, and the electric organ is represented by a heater....you can't tell in the 2D drawing but the 3D one exposes my trick so you will have to use your imagination here.
As you can see the piano and cupboard takes up a lot of space, and are also hard reflective surfaces. So placement of these would perhaps influence calculation of listening position and reflection points depending on where they are placed.
So to sum up:
If you have any suggestions where to place speakers and listening position and how to place instruments and furniture, I'm all ears!
Also if you have suggestions how to place out my acoustic material that would be appreciated!
Thanks alot!
/Jonas
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jonas
New Member
Posts: 10
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Post by jonas on Feb 5, 2023 18:24:29 GMT
Is there anybody out there?
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 5, 2023 18:36:58 GMT
Hi, welcome. I'm just now seeing this but will not be at my computer to review it. Maybe someone else will join in or I can check it out another time. Thanks.
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jonas
New Member
Posts: 10
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Post by jonas on Feb 5, 2023 19:05:34 GMT
Thanks! I'm happy to take advice or pointers from you, Hexpa or anyone else who feels like joining in and helping me sort this room out. Until later then  |
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Post by rock on Feb 6, 2023 19:11:19 GMT
First, one question: What's that thing across from the desk? Can it be moved? I'm mostly just wondering.
I think the most obvious answer is the speaker /listening position etc. Set up the speakers on the north wall. Exact positions need to be determined experimentally. I'm pretty sure Hexspa has a procedure in a post somewhere or in a youtube. Either search or he'll probably get back soon. Best way to minimize mix desk reflections is speakers on stands and a small desk.
Deep wide-band absorption on the 4 ft south wall. Absorption on the 8ft south wall too. Actually you know you need absorption everywhere, it's just where do you need it the most?
I like your idea of a complete ceiling frame. It takes care of LF floor/ceiling modes and reflections at the same time.
Squeeze in as many of your bass traps in the corners as you can fit.
Cheers
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 7, 2023 8:19:28 GMT
Let me preface this post by admitting that I did not read your whole post for reasons I go into below. I apologize if I don't answer your question in the following. If it's not in there then please just ask one question at a time. Thank you.
Your post is very detailed. In my opinion, too detailed. Acoustic treatment is easy: your room rings and reflects so you introduce absorption (duh).
The geniuses have already digested the complicated stuff to the point where you just grab solutions off the rack.
Listening position: 20, 32 or 45% all axial dimensions. Perform measurements to confirm best performance. Balance that with practicality.
Speakers: equilateral triangle, the closer to your ears, the more accurate the sound (min. 0.5m)
Subwoofer: do a crawl or start between 1/4 wavelength and corner of front wall and apply same caveats as listening position. More subwoofers helps bass.
Absorber functions: early reflections, modal ringing, and speaker-boundary interference. (I just added this for clarity as it's repeated in the next section).
Absorption locations: Primarily, early reflections (walls within 10-20 feet that are between you and the speakers) aka RFZ. Secondarily, modal dampening aka 'bass traps'. Corners are simply convenient places to have an air gap and treat two boundaries at once. Other than that, you just treat as much of the wall as will dampen your target resonance to a sufficient degree. Note that speaker-boundary interference can be mitigated with absorption. This happens most strongly at the 1/4 wavelength of a frequency. So, if your speakers are 2' from a wall then you'll get a cancellation of an 8' wavelength. This is separate from FRZ and modal issues. Bear in mind that your speakers are in a 3D space so front, maybe rear, left and right will all be at cancellation points. When placing your speakers, avoid duplicating these distances (yes you might compromise a little symmetry which is necessary anyway for left-right axial mode).
Absorption type: maximum thicknesses per absorber: 6" rigid, 12" safe n sound, 24" fluffy. Technically, density is not related to absorber performance. It is indirectly a property of resistivity (kind of) which, ultimately, contributes to a panel's resistance (resistivity with a given depth). Let's say that the more dense the material, the thinner it will be before it becomes increasingly reflective (not what you want). If a mouse can't grab chunks out of it then it's rigid and needs to be max 6". Maybe 4lb can be 8" but no guarantees.
Bonus points: 1x air gap behind any panel enhances low end at slight cost in lower mids. FRK enhances low end at the expense of higher frequencies.
Method: empty room, place mic at possible listening position and subwoofer at 1/4 wavelength against front wall or front corner. Identify best spots for both (you'll notice response trends). Install stuff in room including RFZ panels and any panels you'll use for recording. Measure again to identify SPL and ringing issues. Place absorption based on ringing frequencies (which correlate to physical dimensions) until you run out of material or space or achieve your targets*. EQ and balance your subs then integrate with mains. Measure to confirm. Listen to make sure everything sounds right. Revisit any previous steps to apply creative or technical tweaks. Done.
*targets: +-10dB spl with a 1dB/oct slope (or +4dB sub bass relative to 1kHz) and 20dB modal decay within 150 ms above 63Hz with a smooth taper in addition to spectrally balanced early reflections - or better.
Resources:
How to predict ringing frequencies:
calculate modal harmonics (axial mode):
F = n1130/2D (imperial) 1125 ft/s
F = n345/2D (metric) speed of sound 343m/s @ 20deg Celcius
F is frequency
n is harmonic (1-4)
D is dimension (distance between walls)
first harmonic 16ft length
F = 1x1130/32
35.3125Hz C#1
Caveat: you can use pressure absorbers but I haven't and don't think they're required for most home audio applications.
Summary: place absorption where there's a problem. Generally, there're a lot of problems (depending who you ask) so you need a lot of absorption. 15-20% of sufficiently thick (1/4 dimension-thick and low-resistance is ideal) is a good start.
Regarding your room, face the window.
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jonas
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Post by jonas on Feb 7, 2023 20:44:05 GMT
First, one question: What's that thing across from the desk? Can it be moved? I'm mostly just wondering. I think the most obvious answer is the speaker /listening position etc. Set up the speakers on the north wall. Exact positions need to be determined experimentally. I'm pretty sure Hexspa has a procedure in a post somewhere or in a youtube. Either search or he'll probably get back soon. Best way to minimize mix desk reflections is speakers on stands and a small desk. Deep wide-band absorption on the 4 ft south wall. Absorption on the 8ft south wall too. Actually you know you need absorption everywhere, it's just where do you need it the most? I like your idea of a complete ceiling frame. It takes care of LF floor/ceiling modes and reflections at the same time. Squeeze in as many of your bass traps in the corners as you can fit. Cheers
Thanks for you answer Rock, I'm glad you joined the conversation!
The thing across from the desk is a Philips Philicordia Transistor organ. The app used for creating the 2D and 3D plans did not have a model of an organ so I used an electrical heater that has similar dimensions to represent it, also in the 2D plans it actually looks like an organ from above.
The three small tables are representations of my guitar/bass amps/cabs. The box at the north window is a rack containing mic preamps interface etc.
It's just to get an idea of the space and the amount of gear, really.
The organ can be moved, all the stuff in the room can be moved, so feel free to come with suggestions how you would setup the room including placment of furniture/instruments.
Thanks also for your suggestion of facing the north wall...
I'm guessing your reasoning is something like this (correct me if I'm wrong);
- The north and south walls are the longest distance between walls, being 17 feet apart. So facing either the north or the south wall would put the reflections from the back wall farthest away from the listening position. - Facing the north wall the speakers would be farther away from left and right reflection points then if facing the south wall since the distance between western and eastern walls are greater in the northern portion of the room (12 feet ) then in the southern part of the room (8 feet). - The 4 feet southern wall is a bit of a problem because it makes the room assymetrical behind the listening position with one part of the back wall being closer to listening position then the other part of the back wall. But adding thick absorption to this wall could dampen reflections and will make the room seem more symmetrical.
I would have to place the cupboard somwhere else to be able to fit thick absorption on the 4 feet southern wall.
Not sure where to put the piano in this scenario... either I would keep it where it is and consider it a wall when calculating reflection points. And I would have have a movable RFZ-panel that I could put in front of the piano when mixing. Or I could perhaps put the piano with the back to the northern wall in the northwest corner. The piano would then be behind the left speaker if I'm imagining this right.
If I would choose facing the southern instead... - I would still have the back wall 17 feet from the front wall like in the previous example. - Walls would be closer to speakers which would be negative.
- There are three doors in this end of the room which will make it a bit harder to place speakers and RFZ panels without getting in the way of the doors. - Assymetry behind listening position will be less then previous example as room opens up and becomes larger behind listening position. That would be a positive. - The room would be divided into one mixing side (southern wall) and one tracking side with more room for instruments and band members (northern wall).
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jonas
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Post by jonas on Feb 7, 2023 20:47:25 GMT
Regarding your room, face the window.
There are two windows, an oversized one on the western wall and a normal sized one on the nothern wall. Which one should I be facing in your opinion?
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 8, 2023 23:12:02 GMT
Regarding your room, face the window.
There are two windows, an oversized one on the western wall and a normal sized one on the nothern wall. Which one should I be facing in your opinion?
The northern. The principles behind it is that you want symmetry from your ears forward and maximum distance from your speakers and ears to any boundary. Actually, speaker placement is a little more complex than that. You either want to have your speakers very close or very far from a wall. Anyway, no other orientation meets these criteria. |
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jonas
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Post by jonas on Feb 9, 2023 18:21:21 GMT
Thanks, Hexpa! So then both you and Rock agree on facing the northern wall, good to know. I would prefer to not have a desk at listening position. In my previous studio I just used a tiny 50x30 cm table to put my laptop and put the speakers on stands. This way I minimized desk reflections. It worked quite well.
In my current room I want the larger portion to be as open as possible, to have space for recording sessions and band members. So I will keep this practice of minimal or no desk at all.
I also would prefer to have the speakers closer to the wall for the same space saving reasons. If this is bad acoustically, I could also just have the speakers in some random position against the northern wall most of the time, since most of the time will be recording time. And put them in optimal position, in the equilateral triangle, come mix time.
So to clarify, the desk in my floor plan is just a regular office desk for office tasks, not a mixing desk.
With this in mind, where would guys put the piano, cupboard and desk?
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 10, 2023 22:31:33 GMT
Ideally, in another room. If not, along the western wall as far from your listening position as possible. Small desk good.
Speakers close to a wall results in the speaker-boundary interference to be higher in frequency. If you're using a full-range speaker then you want it no more than a half meter from any nearby boundary. In the case of bass-management with a sub then it's either all the way in (a few cm for port function) or 1.1m away from wall. The distance between 0.5m and 1.1m is around 160 to 80Hz. If you pull the full rangers out further then now you have a new bass problem and it's harder to treat. Make sure not to have your speakers equidistant from any two boundaries or these nulls will be even worse. I don't recommend you be moving your speakers around unless you're ok with risking consistent monitoring.
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Post by rock on Feb 11, 2023 15:03:58 GMT
It looks like your piano is a digital on a stand. It really does not have a large "acoustical footprint" i.e. influence reflections/absorption etc. so leave it there if it's not in your way. If you want, you can run a couple REW sweep with it in and out of the room an see if a difference shows up but if anything it will be minimal and probably only in the HF. BTW, I don't think measurement (REW etc.) has been mentioned here; you can use it is as much or as little as you want but it can help identify or confirm issues you may (or may not) be hearing.
Looks like the desk will be behind the LP so it's my guess it's not a problem where it is either.
I like Hexspa's suggestion "in another room" but for the cupboard, yeah, I agree, I'd keep that wall clear for full absorption which will help to make the wall "disappear" acoustically. If you can't move it, so be it, like you mentioned, compromises need to be made...I think that's an issue for all of us. Again, measurements may help you make some decisions.
Cheers
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jonas
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Post by jonas on Feb 14, 2023 22:16:36 GMT
Thank you for your thoughts guys, it is great to have someone to talk to about this stuff...
...Rock, I forgot to tell you, the piano is a 100 year old upright piano, (sorry for the 3D model again). It is quite a piece, 168 cm high 130 cm wide 68cm depth, 230 kg. Many lower uprights sound weak in the bass, but not this one, because of the string length. The downside is of course that it becomes a large reflective surface in my studio.
Most people have upright pianos against a wall, and me too. But ideally, for recording purposes it would be best to have it in the middle of the room, or somwhere where I can have it spaced away from a wall, giving me the option to mic it from the back of the soundboard for a more open sound. Removing the front cover helps a lot with opening up the sound even when being close to a wall, though.
One option could be to place the piano in the with the back/soundboard towards the southern wall. Not close to the wall but more in the middle of the smaller part of the studio. This would create some air behind the piano where the soundboard is. Negatives would be that the piano would become sort of a new "southern wall" that would be closer to the back of the listening position then before. And it would make the whole roome seem smaller. Positives would be that the eastern and western wall could be treated more permanently with absorption at reflection points... Instead of having to pull out an absorber and put it in front of the piano every time i mix.
I don't know if you still would keep the piano by the western wall, knowing that it is not a small digital piano?
I'm thinking of ordering some kind of measuring mic, either a Behringer or a Sonarworks mic. The sonarworks comes with a test file. The Behringer does not but can be ordered from a testing company in Germany, with a calibration file.
I'm going to take a picture of my room and post it here, just have to clean up a bit since I've been painting the walls recently so everything is a mess. Perhaps this will make it more intuitive to see where everything should go, I could place out speakers also and try Hexpas suggestions on speaker placement...
I have a pair of Yamaha HS8 full range speakers... no sub... don't need or want one for mixing..
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 14, 2023 23:40:59 GMT
I think Ethan showed that the calibration file mostly affects high frequencies - don't quote me. realtraps.com/art_microphones.htm Any mic will be truthful about the bass which is what matters. The differences are within 4dB above 2kHz unless you use something weird. |
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jonas
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Post by jonas on Feb 15, 2023 11:36:10 GMT
Yes I seem to remember that too, but i think he refers to omni mics, which I don't have one. But yes then it wouldn't matter what omni mic or measurement mic I get, since they are all omni.
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