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Post by octavarium on May 18, 2016 1:38:55 GMT
Is framing a bass trap a must? Is there a reason why you wouldn't just wrap fabric around a sheet of rock wool and then mount accordingly?
Sorry if this is a dumb question. I didn't know bass traps existed before a week ago. My head is starting to spin from all the reading I've been doing to lean about them over the last few days. I will definitely be adding them to my home theater room which is a small 11'x17' rectangle that has a 7.5' ceiling.
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Post by Hexspa on May 18, 2016 5:01:29 GMT
Is framing a bass trap a must? Is there a reason why you wouldn't just wrap fabric around a sheet of rock wool and then mount accordingly? Sorry if this is a dumb question. I didn't know bass traps existed before a week ago. My head is starting to spin from all the reading I've been doing to lean about them over the last few days. I will definitely be adding them to my home theater room which is a small 11'x17' rectangle that has a 7.5' ceiling. It is not a must. Read all of Ethan's articles 3 times, build some traps, mount them, measure your results, move stuff around, measure again, post to a forum, implement feedback, do this for a few years and you'll then start to get it. Barely. -m
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Post by Rock on May 18, 2016 12:04:43 GMT
No, you don't need frames, but frames make it easier to mount, provides some protection from possible damage and give nice sharp, neat corners when you cover them with fabric. That being said, I made my ceiling clouds without frames so I used hardware cloth (heavy screen) on the front (facing down, behind the fabric) to allow hanging with stiff wire (4 each) piercing the cloud and hooking the screen then attaching to the ceiling above.
Actually, without frames, there is more surface exposed so even if it's not a huge difference, it's certainly not worse!
Frames can make it easier but if you're creative, you can mount them without.
Cheers, Rock
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Post by octavarium on May 19, 2016 3:32:36 GMT
Good info. Thanks guys. I haven't worked with rock wool, so I'm not sure what to expect. I would hope that I could attach eyelet screws to the board, but I'm not sure of how rigid the rock wool sheet is. I like the idea of hardware cloth.
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Post by Rock on May 19, 2016 4:13:41 GMT
Mineral wool is a little messy but in my area it's readily available and fairly inexpensive so it's worth the trouble. I wear nitrile or latex gloves, long sleeve shirt and respirator or dust mask. If you need to cut to size, use a fine tooth saw. Thermafiber Safing 4" thick will stand on edge so you can stack two on end in the corner if you have 8' ceilings. If lower than 8', you can cut one of the two to fit snug floor to ceiling without frames. If you want insurance they won't topple, about a 1 square foot piece of hardware cloth attached the the batt behind the fabric, then a wire piercing the bat, hooked to the hardware cloth in front can be anchored to the wall behind. It's kinda cheezy but it works. I wrap the fabric and glue the fabric together with spray glue. I went super cheap and used landscape fabric, talk about cheap, I put a few batts in the windows and the UV disintegrated the fabric in about 1 year. Ha Ha. But in the windowless basement studio, no UV, no problem.
If you want your studio or room the look professional, I'd suggest you go with wood frames. If you don't care about looks, durability and want cheap, go frameless.
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Post by Hexspa on May 19, 2016 5:03:11 GMT
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Post by Rock on May 19, 2016 11:46:23 GMT
The 4" thick Theramafiber Safing batts I'm familiar with don't seem firm enough to be held up with nails or spikes (and washers) alone but they might, I guess a test would be required. I notice what I think of as "batts" you call "boards", exactly what kind of material are you referring to as "boards"? The reason I use the hardware cloth is to support the weight of the batt over a greater area to prevent the fastener from pulling through the batt. This is especially my concern for clouds, with vertical absorbers, I would think the holes would elongate as the weight of the batt pulls down around the nail/spike, hey, but it might be OK, but I'll let you try is out, I'm not ready to pound 16" spikes in my walls and ceilings. Ha Ha.
Thanks, Rock
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 16:07:09 GMT
Frames not required, and actually allow more of the trap to work. However, they do make placement far easier. The two corner traps here (left and right) are totally frame free, just rest on appropriate shelving, same at the top to hold in place. I think they look ok and reasonably professional Easy to make, two full size batts (600 x 120mm) glued together with spray adhesive, wrapped in 25mm polyester to keep colour right and stop fibres etc - it also adds some cushion effect, then wrapped in muslin. Not rocket science for sure - no nails required.
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Post by octavarium on May 19, 2016 20:47:56 GMT
Nice looking traps Steve! Is there a reason why you mounted them flush against the wall vs angled in the corners? I am still learning but thought I have read that you want air to flow behind the traps.
Thanks for the pics. I'm very much a visual guy, so these really help.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 21:09:36 GMT
Simple reason - space availability. Window on left - desk on right = thats how it needed to be to look right. There are so many traps in that room it would have made very little difference overall to have them angled. The main corner traps at the front of this room are not angled either - but cover a similar area and are part of the room. In this instance I also wanted them to look like this rather than the more familiar angled look.
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Post by octavarium on May 19, 2016 21:26:20 GMT
That looks really nice. Something for me to consider.
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Post by Rock on May 19, 2016 21:28:11 GMT
Yes, Steve great work and look good too.
Octa, you're right that spaced away from the wall, (typically the space is equal the the panel thickness but is can be more or less) is usually desired. But the reason is not air flow and they will work flush against the wall too. The reason is fundamental the way they work which is absorbing the velocity of the sound wave as opposed the the pressure. Pressure occurs at the boundary (wall) where the wave stops (for only an instant) and turns around (reflects back into the room). As the wave moves away from the wall, the velocity increases and thats where the absorption action is. But keep in mind the instant and millimeter the wave starts to move away from the wall there is velocity, it's just less than at the zero crossing point which is max velocity. That's why they will work flush against the wall. The velocity of the wave (actually molecules in the air bouncing back and forth) vibrate the fibers in the panel and heat them up a causing them the lose their energy of motion hence their ability to vibrate your ear drum. The thicker the panel or panel + space, the lower the frequency absorbed. I'm sure Steve has a practical reason he did not space them away from the wall.
Cheers, Rock
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 21:40:41 GMT
I suppose I **could** have placed a single 6" thick slab 4-6" away from the wall. But, me being me - glued 2 x 6" thick slabs together to get that little bit more absorption. It was also way easier to do!
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Post by octavarium on May 19, 2016 23:32:06 GMT
Thanks for the explanation Rock. I figured air flow was probably not accurate and I was spacing out on what I had read. I shouldn't be on poking around on forums when I'm at work, but it is a heck of a lot more interesting.
I appreciate all of the responses to my question. They've been easy to understand and very helpful.
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Post by Hexspa on May 20, 2016 4:53:57 GMT
The 4" thick Theramafiber Safing batts I'm familiar with don't seem firm enough to be held up with nails or spikes (and washers) alone but they might, I guess a test would be required. I notice what I think of as "batts" you call "boards", exactly what kind of material are you referring to as "boards"? The reason I use the hardware cloth is to support the weight of the batt over a greater area to prevent the fastener from pulling through the batt. This is especially my concern for clouds, with vertical absorbers, I would think the holes would elongate as the weight of the batt pulls down around the nail/spike, hey, but it might be OK, but I'll let you try is out, I'm not ready to pound 16" spikes in my walls and ceilings. Ha Ha. Thanks, Rock I just meant something like this: Initially I meant to say 2" panels (boards - rigid insulation) but if we're talking about mounting insulation with no frames - why not be extreme? For the records I haven't tested a frameless mount. Like mentioned, a fabric wrap is probably about as frameless as I've actually seen done (in pics). For $0.50/nail you could definitely save some dosh: jet.com/product/PrimeSource-50lb-38x12-Landscape-Spike-12SPK/33c7c473c7ac4cbaa3afbcfb9736d456
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