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Post by oldschoolsound on Jan 21, 2017 23:45:07 GMT
There are several helpful threads on this site to complete my listening room, but this is a subject I've not read about.
The room is in the basement so studs were installed to allow for insulation and 4' x 8' wall paneling; 15/32" DuraTemp. Cross members add rigidity to the vertical studs which are on 16" centers. I will be adding a floating floor and using an acoustic underlayment between it and the 3/4" floorboard to deaden footsteps, etc. This got me thinking: is there any advantage to cutting strips of the underlayment and install it to the face of the studs as an acoustic dampener for the paneling? I realize this won't take the place of proper bass traps and such, but it seems to work so effectively on floors, why not walls?
I also understand that the floor is getting a direct hit from an object with quite a bit of force, but from what I've read about how sound can cause walls to move and vibrate, I want to do what ever I can while there is still the opportunity.
Thanks for any help.
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Post by rock on Jan 22, 2017 17:31:29 GMT
Most important point: Soundproofing and acoustic treatment are two different things. Soundproofing or sound transmission attenuation or sound isolation involves things like using RC (resilient channel) between studs and drywall (probably better than your underlayment idea) and using compressed mineral wool under the floor plates. (BTW, plates are the 2x4's parallel to and on the floor/ceiling to which the vertical studs are fastened). Acoustic treatment, OTOH, includes things like thick porous absorbers for bass, early reflections and flutter echoes. For details about soundproofing I recommend Rod Gervais' book: www.amazon.com/Home-Recording-Studio-Build-Like/dp/143545717XHowever, if your basement floor is concrete, and there is no living space below, all you need is carpet and padding to quiet footsteps. Also, depending on the original construction of your home, you may not need sound transmission attenuation either, but it also depends on how loud you play your music and how quiet the other occupants want it in the rest of the house. Cheers, Rock |
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Post by oldschoolsound on Jan 22, 2017 18:03:40 GMT
Rock,
Thanks for your recommendations.
I should have been more specific in my original post; it is not to sound proof, which this does sound like, especially with the products you mentioned and others available for that, instead I was wondering if having a damping material between the studs and wall panels would help reduce the amount of sound energy the walls reflect back into the room that will need to be treated with proper acoustic treatments within the room itself.
I could be over thinking this or confusing treatments with soundproofing after everything I've tried to read, but its my first chance to build mostly from scratch, so what to consider all the options that I can do that make sense.
Thanks,
Scott
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Post by rock on Jan 22, 2017 18:51:25 GMT
Acoustic treatment does not "make sense" until you really understand the principles. I don't mean to be condescending but "conventional wisdom" and intuition don't necessarily apply when it comes to acoustics.
Insulation in a wall damps the vibration of the paneling (drywall etc.) but does little to nothing for low frequency room modes which is what bass traps are for.
Porous absorbers (soft or dense fiberglass, mineral wool, polyester, foam etc.) absorb sound and reduce or eliminate it from reflecting and bouncing all over the room. Please read Ethan's stickies, website and book for more details.
Look at other threads here and see the advice given to others with similar projects. The advice is almost always the same: fire speakers down the length, use lots of bass traps in all 12 corners (a rectangle has 12 corners not 4), use absorption for reflection points (actually areas), use more absorbers to control flutter echoes. These are some of the most repeated suggestions.
Cheers,
Rock
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Post by oldschoolsound on Jan 22, 2017 20:37:37 GMT
Rock,
Thanks again for your quick response. So there would not be a benefit to this procedure beyond what has already been done; cross-bracing and insulation between the studs to dampen panel vibration - thanks for letting me know.
Regarding the rest of the room, I will be following the recommendation on this site and that you so neatly condensed: rooms dimensions and listening position based on acoustic ratios, 4" of Corning 705 framed but without a solid back mounted floor to ceiling at a 45 degree angle in the four vertical corners, 2" of 705 at a 45 on the back wall/ceiling corner and 2", with the ability to try it with foil facing in or out, at first reflection points on the ceiling and floor mounted about 2" from the surface as a starting point.
There is one area I am still not clear on, so could I ask your recommendation on floor treatment? It will be a engineered wood floor. Those with recording studios seem to recommend a solid, bare surface and when listening to acoustic instruments with or without vocals and orchestral selections, this seems to be the recommended set-up. But more often, classic rock, R & B, etc. will be played and usually at higher volumes. It would be easy enough to roll back an area rug to see which is preferred, but if floor treatment is used, is there a recommendation on material, area of coverage or placement that you have? If I've missed this in other threads, I apologize, and if it helps, the room is basically 7.5' H, 12.5' W and 17.5' L.
Thanks again,
Scott
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Post by rock on Jan 23, 2017 1:23:24 GMT
First, insulation in the walls and damping is not a bad thing so since fluffy insulation is fairly cheap, if it's in the budget, go for it. It just won't do anything for bass trapping. It's normal use is of course for thermal insulation, so you'll benefit from that too.
Your side wall/ceiling corners can be bass trapped too (wall/floor too but that can create foot traffic obstacles). 4" is better than 2". All bass traps NOT in RFZs should have foil out for improved bass response. Also, spacing wall and ceiling RFZ panels and equal to thickness from the wall improves LF performance of those panels too simply for the cost of spacing them (Almost FREE - labor).
Floor treatment is easy. Leave is concrete if you don't want absorption. A wood floor is for cosmetics. Add a thick carpet/rug for absorption. I prefer a felt pad but if you check data tables, foam can be almost as good or the same.
Cheers,
Rock
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Post by oldschoolsound on Jan 23, 2017 13:56:33 GMT
Rock,
Thanks for the clarity - good to know how to proceed now. I'll keep the 705 foil facing out for bass trap locations and consider the side wall/ceiling corners too. It sounds like the additional effort to mount the panels with air space is well worth it.
For the floor I'll use some rugs and materials I have on hand to see which, if any, improve things compared to the bare floor.
Enjoy,
Scott
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Post by Ethan Winer on Jan 23, 2017 22:25:17 GMT
Rock gave you excellent answers, so I have little else (read: nothing) to add!
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Post by Hexspa on Jan 27, 2017 3:22:37 GMT
Rock, Thanks for your recommendations. I should have been more specific in my original post; it is not to sound proof, which this does sound like, especially with the products you mentioned and others available for that, instead I was wondering if having a damping material between the studs and wall panels would help reduce the amount of sound energy the walls reflect back into the room that will need to be treated with proper acoustic treatments within the room itself. I could be over thinking this or confusing treatments with soundproofing after everything I've tried to read, but its my first chance to build mostly from scratch, so what to consider all the options that I can do that make sense. Thanks, Scott I know little to nothing about how building materials respond to sound but, if you think about it, putting a damping material behind sheetrock would probably make some difference. It doesn't seem fundamentally different than putting a membrane on broadband absorption. The question is how much benefit would you get for the cost involved. Considering that, conventional approaches for acoustic treatment are probably the best value. -m |
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Post by oldschoolsound on Jan 28, 2017 0:05:49 GMT
Ethan,
Thanks for confirming what Rock said. You have a great forum here!
Hexspa,
I'd agree that at this point the best in the conventional approach, but like you said, there are some reasons to think it could effect things, just not enough.
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Post by muskrat1954 on Apr 17, 2017 20:17:33 GMT
I saw sheetrock at lumber yard claiming to help soundproofing. Don't know if it absorbs or what. It was at Lowe's, it costs 2X regular rock
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Post by Hexspa on Apr 18, 2017 2:01:54 GMT
I saw sheetrock at lumber yard claiming to help soundproofing. Don't know if it absorbs or what. It was at Lowe's, it costs 2X regular rock I'd hazard a guess it's actually more dense |
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Post by rock on Apr 18, 2017 13:49:27 GMT
Mass layers don't absorb sound much at all. A sheetrock wall will resonate or vibrate at LF and absorb a little but the more massive it is the less and lower it vibrates and absorbs. Mass layers "soundproof" by not moving and not allowing vibrations to pass to the other side.
For better "soundproofing" i.e. reducing sound transmission from room to room, mass layers are a key component. So if a product is more dense or massive, it should provide better soundproofing...but only if it's used in a comprehensive design. If it costs 2x more and is not 2x as massive, I would suspect is may be more cost effective to instead use 2 "regular" sheetrocks laminated together. For a decision like this, I would always check acoustic performance data from the manufacturer and compare to other similar products.
Cheers,
Rock
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