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Post by starandchlorisse on Feb 27, 2017 6:45:43 GMT
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Post by arnyk on Feb 27, 2017 13:25:11 GMT
It's not necessary. While I consider Archimago a friend of science, he consistently stops short of what I consider to be the PAYOFF: "Is is audible, and how significant are those measurable differneces anyway?" Based on a number of decades of DBTs many involving measurements versus reliable audibility, I would speculate that very little of what was measured in the blog you mentioned would be an audible change that anybody would knowingly walk across a room to obtain. IOW on a good day you might be willing to reach out and turn a knob, but no way would it be worth it to actually stand up and walk even a few feet. ;-) BTW if this stuff really bothered you, a good parameteric eq might be a good work around. |
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 27, 2017 15:25:33 GMT
Ethan just did a test on NS-10's. Grill makes a difference.
-m
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Post by arnyk on Feb 27, 2017 16:57:29 GMT
Ethan just did a test on NS-10's. Grill makes a difference. -m In this day and age of sophisticated measurements, just about everything makes a difference. I suspect that I can measure the difference in the undistorted output of a power amp based on the difference between reasonable power cords that are commodity items and within the electrical code. The interesting question relates to significance. One possible interpretation of at least some of the relevant data says that the measurable effect is there, but it is not significant by any reasonable standard. Might was well do wine tasting on DACs.... ;-) Some of Ethan's test results seem to be previewed here: Preview of Ethan's NS10 measurements on FB . A comprehensive set of studio monitor tests, focusing on the NS10's performance can be found here: NS10M: Reference Monitor − PR Newell, KR Holland & JP Newell Other relevant links: NS10 user manual including technical tests Other NS10 measurements |
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Post by Hexspa on Feb 28, 2017 6:53:35 GMT
Ethan just did a test on NS-10's. Grill makes a difference. -m In this day and age of sophisticated measurements, just about everything makes a difference. I suspect that I can measure the difference in the undistorted output of a power amp based on the difference between reasonable power cords that are commodity items and within the electrical code. The interesting question relates to significance. One possible interpretation of at least some of the relevant data says that the measurable effect is there, but it is not significant by any reasonable standard. Might was well do wine tasting on DACs.... ;-) Some of Ethan's test results seem to be previewed here: Preview of Ethan's NS10 measurements on FB . A comprehensive set of studio monitor tests, focusing on the NS10's performance can be found here: NS10M: Reference Monitor − PR Newell, KR Holland & JP Newell Other relevant links: NS10 user manual including technical tests Other NS10 measurementsWhat I understand you saying is, "Not much difference." That seems right. The grill apparently causes a narrow 3dB cut at around 2.8kHz and almost 2dB at 4.5 and 7kHz. Seems like a significant difference. If you tweaked a vocal in a mix by that much you could almost certainly determine it in ABX. -m |
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Post by arnyk on Feb 28, 2017 10:56:22 GMT
Audibility of FR differences is dependent on:
Center frequency - the further from normal midrange, the less sensitive the ear.
Bandwidth - the narrower, the less audible.
Amplitude - dips can be less audible than peaks.
With speakers, off-axis response can minimize the effects of a variation that is only there on-axis.
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Post by Hexspa on Mar 1, 2017 5:12:59 GMT
Audibility of FR differences is dependent on: Center frequency - the further from normal midrange, the less sensitive the ear. Bandwidth - the narrower, the less audible. Amplitude - dips can be less audible than peaks. With speakers, off-axis response can minimize the effects of a variation that is only there on-axis. True but that grill cloth is notching out right where your ear becomes most sensitive. Plus that tissue paper is making a big difference on the high end. I assume people using these in their heyday were in studios and therefore trained enough to hear the differences shown in Ethan's results. They were mixing, after all - not just casually listening while walking around. Plus, when you test something, usually you listen pretty closely so, as an armchair Anthropologist I'm gonna say the differences, to those engineers, were audible and significant. I can't bake-in off axis response but, if I get time, maybe I'll set up a vocal with an emulated response curve of the various differences. -m |
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Post by arnyk on Mar 1, 2017 12:16:33 GMT
Audibility of FR differences is dependent on: Center frequency - the further from normal midrange, the less sensitive the ear. Bandwidth - the narrower, the less audible. Amplitude - dips can be less audible than peaks. With speakers, off-axis response can minimize the effects of a variation that is only there on-axis. [ True but that grill cloth is notching out right where your ear becomes most sensitive. But its influence is narrow. a relatively narrow dip, and there's the off-axis issue (unknown - no data that I can see) Off topic, but this one is probably broad enough. deep enough, and not too high and therefore likely to be audible. Again no off-axis data, but I think it will follow the on-axis data as it is not diffusion around a rigid object. I suspect that I'm talking to a one the many DBT Great Unwashed. No amount of training can get you past the steady state, pure tone thresholds of hearing. Also, when you test something, you probably expect positive results. Expectation Bias is huge! Just do some DBTs with one of the software ABX programs. Compare two wave files, identical in every way except for one of this dips or one of these notches. Your music of your choice. If you don't have a favorite ABX comparator (real men do!), try the ABX plug-in to Foobar2000. Free - google is your friend! |
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Post by Hexspa on Mar 1, 2017 15:54:26 GMT
I might be unwashed but I've done some DBT. I've even done frequency ear training with music and noise as part of my Berklee curriculum - I actually got pretty good at hearing various modifications in the spectrum. Not to mention I spend a few hours mixing each week. So ya. The grill one is pretty close. Since we brought up Ethan's tissue test I consider it on topic. If we ever can hang out I'll bet you $5 I can hear the tissue on tweeter and $2.50 I can hear the grill cloth DBX  . -m |
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Post by Hexspa on Mar 2, 2017 6:36:18 GMT
[ True but that grill cloth is notching out right where your ear becomes most sensitive. But its influence is narrow. a relatively narrow dip, and there's the off-axis issue (unknown - no data that I can see) Off topic, but this one is probably broad enough. deep enough, and not too high and therefore likely to be audible. Again no off-axis data, but I think it will follow the on-axis data as it is not diffusion around a rigid object. I suspect that I'm talking to a one the many DBT Great Unwashed. No amount of training can get you past the steady state, pure tone thresholds of hearing. Also, when you test something, you probably expect positive results. Expectation Bias is huge! Just do some DBTs with one of the software ABX programs. Compare two wave files, identical in every way except for one of this dips or one of these notches. Your music of your choice. If you don't have a favorite ABX comparator ( real men do!), try the ABX plug-in to Foobar2000. Free - google is your friend! Just caught that end part.  Wouldn't wanna be called a squishy on the internet. -m |
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Post by Joe Hamilton on Mar 22, 2017 1:20:36 GMT
Who's "Manuel"?  |
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Post by starandchlorisse on Mar 24, 2017 18:16:14 GMT
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