migf
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Posts: 9
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Post by migf on Jun 6, 2017 20:59:18 GMT
Dear Ethan, Thank you in advance for your attention and any help that you may provide. I'm considering turning my bedroom into a project studio mixing and vocal recording room. I know that this is far from ideal, but I was hoping that you could nonetheless suggest a reasonably inexpensive treatment that would improve the room's response. I'm aiming for Step 1 acoustic correction options that would make a serious impact, basically; I will consider other options at a later stage. The room itself is 13.8 ft x 12.3ft (height: 8.5 ft), there's a double window-single pane door (roughly 10% of the room walls) and also an ordinary private home wooden door - I attach both the schematics and actual photos. Vocal booth: I have one of those "portable booth" reflection shields that they sell nowadays for the microphone and this is placed near one of the corners. I'm hoping that using a cardioid coupled with the back foam from the shield will more or less resolve one of the sides. I read that, even though I can use a carpet on the floor, that this is the least problematic side and so my wooden floor should be fine (whereas a rug would deaden the sound via HF absorption). I'm guessing a bass trap in that trihedral angle on the ceiling over the microphone... but you'll know better. And even if you agree with these, there's still a way to go. What would you suggest? Mixing: this is probably a very inconvenient place to leave a pair of speakers (symmetry, distance to wall, etc.). Do you think I could get a reasonable working perspective by mixing here after room treatment? (Schematics attached). I also have a waterfall, room impulse and other data from a quick recording in Fuzz Measure, but I guess my case is quite generic and there's only room for three attachments. Thanks again, this time for your patience, and I look forward to hearing from you. :-) Best regards, Miguel
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Post by Hexspa on Jun 7, 2017 10:27:22 GMT
This is what I'm using: Works pretty good. Haven't done any measurements but I don't need to do a lot of EQ when I'm done so I guess I did alright. There's only 2' of panels to the right because there's no wall after that for another 14' or so. I do put blankets on the floor when I record for the heck of it. I haven't done before-and-after comparisons but I probably will eventually. I've been so busy I haven't even hung my ceiling cloud or rear wall absorbers yet! If you listen to this song called "Black Crow" you can hear the vocals I'm getting out of it; closed mic'd with the SM57 you see there. -m
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Post by Hexspa on Jun 7, 2017 10:41:35 GMT
Regarding your LP, I think you should face your window.
You can move your bed either to the center in front or behind you.
In this way you'll gain maximum symmetry and be firing down the length of the room.
You can put your recording zone behind you in a well-treated space like I have.
-m
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migf
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Posts: 9
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Post by migf on Jun 8, 2017 0:01:27 GMT
Hi Hexspa. That's odd, my reply from a few hours ago didn't get through. Bummer Anyway, I listened to your recording. That's a pretty dead room alright, and the vocals were mixed dry, so it really shows. Personally, I'd rather not have a dead room, I'm mostly concerned with early reflections, but some controlled room sound is ok as long as it's subtle. I don't want to hear it, but I want to feel it's there. You make a good point regarding symmetry, but it would be inconvenient to put the stand in front of the glass doors. I also happen to think that a bass trap in that trihedral corner wall/ceiling over the stand would be perfect. Perhaps a couple of gobos behind me and some side absorbers would do the trick.
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Post by Ethan Winer on Jun 8, 2017 20:12:47 GMT
I agree with Hex that you should face the window, putting the door at the rear of the room. Then do the usual bass traps and side-wall reflections panels.
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Post by rock on Jun 8, 2017 23:55:52 GMT
I agree with Ethan and Hex but here's the way I visualize what's going on:
First, I assume you're using a unidirectional mic. This means the rear and rear sides of the mic are generally least sensitive to ambient room reflections (or any sound for that matter). The sound reflections from the window will not be picked up at the back of the mic and will continue out into the room. YOU will hear the reflections off the window but the mic won't! (If it bothers you and you don't need to see out the window, prop a piece of foam on the window.) The front and front sides of the mic WILL also pick up room sounds (reflections) which WILL influence your recording. Since we are talking about small rooms, these reflections are almost always unwanted.
So, it makes sense to point the mic into the treated room and sing relatively close so the ratio of direct to reflected sound is high and, if the room is treated well enough, the reflected sound entering the mic will also be greatly attenuated. Add electronic reverb and echo to taste.
Cheers, Rock
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Post by Hexspa on Jun 9, 2017 16:15:32 GMT
Hi Hexspa. That's odd, my reply from a few hours ago didn't get through. Bummer Anyway, I listened to your recording. That's a pretty dead room alright, and the vocals were mixed dry, so it really shows. Personally, I'd rather not have a dead room, I'm mostly concerned with early reflections, but some controlled room sound is ok as long as it's subtle. I don't want to hear it, but I want to feel it's there. You make a good point regarding symmetry, but it would be inconvenient to put the stand in front of the glass doors. I also happen to think that a bass trap in that trihedral corner wall/ceiling over the stand would be perfect. Perhaps a couple of gobos behind me and some side absorbers would do the trick. I just don't fancy a ton of verb on anything, idk. I always think I'm pushing the wetness but then I listen to other records and, you're right, I tend to mix dry. Regarding convenience: I feel you there. My front door is, well, in front of me in the corner to my left! I have to slide my super chunks around every time I come or go. It's hilarious and yet not. I guess it comes down to what you can manage. Another thing regarding the bed: I don't have one. I sleep on the floor. In that sense I might have the biggest bed of anyone here. It's supposed to be orthopedically beneficial. In any case I gain all that space and never have to replace mattresses or make my bed. I mention this since that seems to be the biggest object in your room. It's obviously not for everyone to sleep on the floor but, having been doing it for the past seven years, I can assure you it's very possible and actually what I prefer. Thanks for listening. -m
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migf
New Member
Posts: 9
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Post by migf on Jun 11, 2017 12:24:03 GMT
First of all, thank you all for the comments! Ethan Winer : beside the argument of symmetry, in what way would you say facing the window is beneficial compared to the corner wall? The wall brings me two advantages: room logistics and I want to put a trihedral bass trap right on top of it for overall room treatment, so it's a two-birds-with-one-stone situation. The mic shouldn't pick up the back (glass or wall) anyway. Regarding bass traps and reflection panels, what would you suggest? Thanks again! rock : yes, it's a cardioid, so I assume the back and sides covered and any leakage is probably residual. That leaves: the floor, which I'm told it's not an issue and a carpet would actually just take HF and dull the sound; (still) the sides: if I keep it in the corner, do you suppose two extra panels on the side walls would be worth adding? (see close walls on original post); and the back: how about a folded gobo absorber behind me? Basically, I'm hoping to get sort of an open vocal booth that corrects most of the early reflections and retains some "breathing" reverb. Hexspa : I totally get what you're saying about reverb, but with the right balance it opens up the sound without drowning it. High and low frequencies for the reverb exclusively can be fixed independently in any DAW, so I suggest you give it a go. :-) A bit off-topic: sleeping on the floor... that's better for you than the wrong mattress, which will work against your back, but so will the wrong posture with or without a mattress. I suggest you have a look at memory foam toppers with the right density (50kg/m3 or more). I use one on top of a hard mattress, it's only 3" thick, and I'm pretty sure it works just as well on the floor. Proper back support is not a luxury.
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Post by Hexspa on Jun 11, 2017 16:41:00 GMT
First of all, thank you all for the comments! Ethan Winer : beside the argument of symmetry, in what way would you say facing the window is beneficial compared to the corner wall? The wall brings me two advantages: room logistics and I want to put a trihedral bass trap right on top of it for overall room treatment, so it's a two-birds-with-one-stone situation. The mic shouldn't pick up the back (glass or wall) anyway. Regarding bass traps and reflection panels, what would you suggest? Thanks again! rock : yes, it's a cardioid, so I assume the back and sides covered and any leakage is probably residual. That leaves: the floor, which I'm told it's not an issue and a carpet would actually just take HF and dull the sound; (still) the sides: if I keep it in the corner, do you suppose two extra panels on the side walls would be worth adding? (see close walls on original post); and the back: how about a folded gobo absorber behind me? Basically, I'm hoping to get sort of an open vocal booth that corrects most of the early reflections and retains some "breathing" reverb. Hexspa : I totally get what you're saying about reverb, but with the right balance it opens up the sound without drowning it. High and low frequencies for the reverb exclusively can be fixed independently in any DAW, so I suggest you give it a go. :-) A bit off-topic: sleeping on the floor... that's better for you than the wrong mattress, which will work against your back, but so will the wrong posture with or without a mattress. I suggest you have a look at memory foam toppers with the right density (50kg/m3 or more). I use one on top of a hard mattress, it's only 3" thick, and I'm pretty sure it works just as well on the floor. Proper back support is not a luxury. The main thing about symmetry, length etc ultimately serves imaging and SPL. The 38% guideline gets you close to that without much more investigation. Ultimately, you want to aim for a spot which gives good results of the formerly mentioned criteria. You can perform measurements to discover which is best in your space. The recording space which I photographed is nearly ideal for a small domestic room, from what I understand. The room tone achievable in such spaces is typically malignant and usually results in a signal that requires more EQ than you'd ordinarly get with a dry capture. I have not always used this much treatment in my corners but I can tell you that the more treatment I add, the less EQ I've needed later. Like you told me: give it a go. You're already recording with virtually no treatment so why not experiment by adding more and more until you find you've gone overboard? That's the only way to exit the Land of the Theoretical and gain first hand knowledge. Don't get me wrong: I like reverb! I love all kinds of effects - particularly the beautiful plates and springs from the 60's; just not on my voice. I could definitely afford to experiment more with verb but I already have three types in my mix project. Regardless, it seems a topic worth mastering. Good idea about the pad. I do sleep on an anti-fatigue mat. I was just making a suggestion. The only orthopedic problems have come by way of jiu jitsu injuries so I guess my sleeping posture is alright. Thanks, -m
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Post by Hexspa on Jun 12, 2017 0:53:26 GMT
To get back to your OP:
Response of a room is due to a few things and, what they are you might already know, they include: construction materials including objects like windows, volume, shape, things in your room like furniture, acoustic treatments, positioning of your speakers and your listening position.
Usually the last three-to-four are what we tend to have control over.
The volume of your room is just shy of what I understand to be ideal for vocal production; that target being 1500ft3. Regardless, I think most successful people will encourage you to work with what you have.
Not to plug my book (available free on my website) but I make a statement within it (I think) that there are targets and there's what you can manage. In other words, there are best practices that experienced individuals will suggest and there's what you're either willing or able to do.
On the other hand, no one can know for sure what's possible in your room without doubt.
While I'm surely repeating myself, you can either follow standard practices or you can innovate. It is my general advice that anyone without experience in a particular area, let us lovingly call them noobs - and everyone's a noob at most things, follow a well-established path to initial success before getting jiggy with it.
Most simply, you can continue to have your desk in the corner etc. but I'm hypothesizing that you'll probably getting better results, and in a more timely fashion, by following the advice heretofore given.
Thanks,
-m
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Post by Ethan Winer on Jun 12, 2017 17:41:17 GMT
That's pretty much the main argument!
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Post by Hexspa on Jun 13, 2017 2:31:07 GMT
That's pretty much the main argument! lul
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migf
New Member
Posts: 9
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Post by migf on Jun 13, 2017 23:00:41 GMT
1500ft3? Isn’t that one third of a mile? I’m sure a vocal recording in a room that size would be interesting, lol. Seriously, though: yes, following standard practices as a starting point seems to be the right approach and I’m far from an expert (as well as far from as knowledgeable as you and Ethan are on the subject); when I challenge a suggestion or show skepticism I’m actually asking what it is that does not support an approach, what it is that I'm missing. The issue of symmetry is a good example. I can see how problematic it is to mix with such an imbalance, but I don’t see that much of a problem in recording on the corner, except, perhaps, for bass build-up - which shouldn’t be that much of a problem for vocals and I’ll be rolling off at 40Hz or so anyway. Actually, I brought this up with someone else with more knowledge of acoustics. He also advised in favor of the window, but not due to the asymmetric reverberation response. I made a few recordings in both places today; I could hardly tell the difference, and I’m sure it should be even more negligible after treatment. Oh, and I only now noticed “Room EQ Wizard” on your avatar. Is that your website? I’ve been meaning to try out that app for a while I’ll go give it a go… Thanks!
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Post by Hexspa on Jun 14, 2017 3:40:33 GMT
1500ft3? Isn’t that one third of a mile? I’m sure a vocal recording in a room that size would be interesting, lol. Seriously, though: yes, following standard practices as a starting point seems to be the right approach and I’m far from an expert (as well as far from as knowledgeable as you and Ethan are on the subject); when I challenge a suggestion or show skepticism I’m actually asking what it is that does not support an approach, what it is that I'm missing. The issue of symmetry is a good example. I can see how problematic it is to mix with such an imbalance, but I don’t see that much of a problem in recording on the corner, except, perhaps, for bass build-up - which shouldn’t be that much of a problem for vocals and I’ll be rolling off at 40Hz or so anyway. Actually, I brought this up with someone else with more knowledge of acoustics. He also advised in favor of the window, but not due to the asymmetric reverberation response. I made a few recordings in both places today; I could hardly tell the difference, and I’m sure it should be even more negligible after treatment. Oh, and I only now noticed “Room EQ Wizard” on your avatar. Is that your website? I’ve been meaning to try out that app for a while I’ll go give it a go… Thanks! Actually a mile is a linear measurement while volume is something different altogether. Room EQ Wizard is a software. I've just appropriated it out of ego and farce. The bottom line is everything can be empirically measured. You can have a good listening position and recording zone in the same room, most likely. But, ultimately, where those are will come down to you discovering them. The guidelines can only help you find those points more quickly. -m
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migf
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Posts: 9
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Post by migf on Jun 14, 2017 4:33:53 GMT
I wasn't mistaking a cubic foot for a one dimensional foot, but you get the point. I'm sorry if your typo wasn't as funny as my question regarding symmetry. ;-)
Like I said, I've been meaning to try out the software application.
Thanks.
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