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Post by miguel on Oct 29, 2017 18:08:55 GMT
ROOM SIZE: 21' 4" X 23' X 11'6"- walls splay 5-10 deg. CONSTRUCTION: Concrete block, fiberglass insulation, drywall FLOORING: Porcelain tile PRIMARY GOAL: 1) Acoustics for the pianist (no recording) 2) hi-fi listening. PIANO: Bluthner 9' Grand, voiced for small room Hi-Fi: Modified Magneplanar MMG/Magnestands, Rythmic 12" sub, DK Design VS-1 Reference MKII Hybrid (Tube/Solid State) Hello, I am in the process of building a new piano room and was wondering how to achieve a more natural or recital hall type affect for the player. I have pretty much free reign on using sheet rock to form coves and niches on the walls and ceilings and can adjust the dimensions a little bit if needed. I could even blow out our up the ceiling a bit if need be. My main goal is the piano and will work around the hi-fi set up as needed. The Magnestands are much easier to set up then traditional Magneplanars but still might even consider changing to KEF LS50W Powered speakers known for forgiving placements due to their "Time Correcting DSP Crossovers" The real trap ceiling tiles looks interesting but not sure if they are more for home theater. Thanks in advanced ! |
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Post by Hexspa on Oct 30, 2017 2:57:00 GMT
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Post by rock on Oct 30, 2017 12:57:22 GMT
I like Hexspa's plan except rotate the piano 90 deg to the right. My thinking is that since the piano lid hinges on the left so when opened, I would think you'd want it to fire into the room and not at the back wall. Also, if your piano is on a "piano truck", it's much easier to move around if you need to tweak the position.
But, I don't think your'e going to duplicate the sound of a recital hall in your room with acoustics alone. If you really want to get the recital hall sound, you will probably need to add reverb and delay. Mic your piano, add reverb and play that through your hi-fi. Of course you'll need to adjust the reverb/echo parameters and level but you'll be able to simulate a wide range of room sizes and acoustics. Treatment on the piano side of the room may help too because some stages have heavy curtains and are pretty dead on stage and the reverb and echo only are heard from the direction of the audience.
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Post by Hexspa on Oct 30, 2017 17:53:18 GMT
I like Hexspa's plan except rotate the piano 90 deg to the right. My thinking is that since the piano lid hinges on the left so when opened, I would think you'd want it to fire into the room and not at the back wall. Attention to detail! I like it. |
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Post by miguel on Oct 30, 2017 21:16:46 GMT
Thanks for the input. So I'm assuming best to be seated towards the middle of the room? Fortunately the piano has large double wheel casters for easy positioning. What about treatments? Was thinking of getting creative with the dry wall by adding plenty of niches and ceiling coves. Plus have one of the walls covered with uneven brick. Attachments:
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Post by Hexspa on Oct 30, 2017 23:38:00 GMT
Regarding positioning, I was thinking more about the 38% rule. You can seat the pianist 38% from the rear and the hi-fi listener the same distance from the front. Now would be a good time to take acoustic measurements to determine exactly where that guideline points you. As far as the piano is concerned, you might find a slightly different position is best depending on which of its characteristics you want to emphasize or diminish. That's if the room's acoustics are good enough to support such options. If the piano is going to remain in one spot while someone listens to the stereo then it might be good to place a baffle between the piano and the rear of the listener to prevent early reflections. Such movable treatments can come in handy in live recording scenarios anyway. Also, if you will be micing the piano, where the mics "hear" best should also influence piano positioning.
Thanks.
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Post by miguel on Nov 2, 2017 1:04:24 GMT
Thank you very much
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Post by Ethan Winer on Nov 7, 2017 15:38:02 GMT
I agree with Rock to have the piano fire the longer way down the room.  |
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Post by miguel on Nov 11, 2017 17:23:34 GMT
I agree with Rock to have the piano fire the longer way down the room. Any recommendation on wall and ceiling treatments? |
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Post by Hexspa on Nov 11, 2017 20:14:46 GMT
You have a medium-sized room which will probably allow for more use of diffusion, should you choose.
The best way to identify correct treatment strategies is to define your problems. You have a hi-fi listening problem and a pianist problem. Each will require a slightly different approach yet must be related.
I advise that you determine which is more important: hi-fi or piano and from there proceed. You seem to want lots of liveness. This is possible to achieve using pure diffusion but it'll be significantly more expensive and space-consuming assuming you don't use metasurface diffusers which aren't yet commercially available.
Standard bass trapping should apply. Also, any surfaces within 7-10' should also be treated for early reflections. That should be implemented for both scenarios.
The complexity lies in that you have a listening room and a live room within one and seem to want maximum ambiance. So, continuing your prioritization, determine what's more important: low-frequency control, taming of early reflections or maximum liveness. Your choice will basically come down to absorption, diffusion or a combination of both. The latter is probably your best bet.
Thanks.
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Post by miguel on Nov 17, 2017 5:11:41 GMT
Thank you for you feedback. I will most likely end up moving my hi-fi set up to another dedicated room since the piano is top priority.
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Post by Hexspa on Nov 18, 2017 0:31:57 GMT
Thank you for you feedback. I will most likely end up moving my hi-fi set up to another dedicated room since the piano is top priority. Glad I could help. (1000 posts woot) |
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Post by seanbeasley on Nov 19, 2017 5:27:02 GMT
Absorption Is definitely the way to go in a smaller space.
What I have done in the past to get a bigger sound from a small room (and especially using MIDI) is run my track through an amp or cabinet in my room, close mic it and have a room mic. It gets more air on the track in a more natural way. What I also do is take a plate reverb and cut some low and high end to make it ‘closer’ or seem like it’s wider.
Right now Soundtoys has a phenomenal plate reverb for free that I’ve been using quite a bit.
Not sure if my IPA is speaking or me—so I apologize if I don’t make sense.
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Post by Hexspa on Nov 20, 2017 1:55:54 GMT
Absorption Is definitely the way to go in a smaller space. What I have done in the past to get a bigger sound from a small room (and especially using MIDI) is run my track through an amp or cabinet in my room, close mic it and have a room mic. It gets more air on the track in a more natural way. What I also do is take a plate reverb and cut some low and high end to make it ‘closer’ or seem like it’s wider. Right now Soundtoys has a phenomenal plate reverb for free that I’ve been using quite a bit. Not sure if my IPA is speaking or me—so I apologize if I don’t make sense. Hey, thanks for the Little Plate tip. I've been using Little Microshift (another freebie from them) on my vocals for nearly every mix. The IPA is probably creating some peaks and nulls but that's nothing my hefeweizen can't EQ out. |
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