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Post by chelonian on Nov 27, 2020 23:41:27 GMT
What am I in for if I record my music in a small (10x10x7.5) carpeted room but I mix on headphones?
The mic'd instruments will be acoustic guitar, voice, djembe, other small percussion, maybe mic'd electric guitar amp. Everything else in the music will be direct in.
I ask because so many of the videos out there talk about reflection and standing waves problems during mixing and go on a lot about where to position the monitor speakers. But if I'm mixing through headphones, none of that matters. What matters is problems in the recordings.
I'm able to put some bookcases with books up to help scatter a bit. Current the room doesn't have much noticeable flutter after a loud hand clap.
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Post by rock on Nov 28, 2020 1:22:33 GMT
There are pros and cos for each but rather than answer this myself, I did a quick search and I found this article: www.musicradar.com/news/tech/monitors-vs-headphones-which-is-best-for-mixing-574584You have nothing to loose (except time) by mixing both ways and checking both mixes out on other know good sounding systems in know good sounding rooms...and in cars...and anywhere else you listen to music. After you get your "hands dirty" come back and let's see if you have more specific questions and we'll go from there.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2020 8:25:30 GMT
Balances and everything is extremely difficult with headphones. The fatigue kicks in really soon and you don't really have perspective for anything. I used to try mix with headphones, it was pure pain in the ass. Headphones are great as ocassional checks, for sure.
Your room is extremely small and two dimensions exactly the same. You wont have workable bass in that room. If I had to work in such room, I would probably use monitors that don't output bass virtually at all, cutting around 85-100hz. Then use good pair of headphones to see how the low end sits.
What monitors and headphones you already own?
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Post by chelonian on Nov 29, 2020 17:38:10 GMT
What monitors and headphones you already own? I don't own any monitors. Re: headphones, just really basic inexpensive ones. Professionally recorded music sounds good on it so it seems that I should be able to use them to create a pleasing final product.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2020 10:15:23 GMT
Yeah, back to the ground. You really think you'll be able to do a pleasing and translatable final product on a mini sized cube room, with 13dollar headphones... ?
Good luck.
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Post by chelonian on Nov 30, 2020 20:27:27 GMT
Yeah, back to the ground. You really think you'll be able to do a pleasing and translatable final product on a mini sized cube room, with 13dollar headphones... ? Good luck. The room won't matter if I'm using headphones to mix. And what I don't understand is why, if Pink Floyd sounds pleasing on $13 headphones, can't newly mixed music? I'm not trying to be combative, I just want to understand the science of this (and steer clear of audiophile hype and myths, as debunked by Ethan himself). Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2020 22:33:11 GMT
Mixing with headphones will not yield usually to translatable mixes. It's incredibly difficult. There's a reason why people don't mix with headphones. Just treat your room the best you can and buy Yamaha hs-5 monitors for example, they're cheap.
I think you know too little, that I can't even explain to you, sorry not my strenght to explain things.
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Post by rock on Dec 1, 2020 1:21:53 GMT
I don't disagree with Pasim but I will say that we are not all necessarily at "the same stage of the game" OR we may not even have the same level of "perfection" as a FINAL GOAL! Having said that, I would encourage chelonian (or anyone else getting started) to start mixing with what is available Right Now! ... with what ever you have. Just do it! You will make mistakes on much more than room acoustics or headphone quality. Let's face it, if we all had the money, most of us would just hire a world class studio, producer and engineer if getting the highest quality recording was the only object. But many top artists build their own "project studios" because they want to do it at home, when they want to etc. Most of us do it at home because we cant afford any thing more . (OK some of us are just "dyed in the wool" DIYers and we have to do it all ourselves!) Side Bar: Back in the olden days (the early 80's) we built a home studio with a Tascam 8 track etc. The leader wrote, sang lead, played lead guitar, engineered, produced, booked the band... almost everything. A common friend of ours joined the band and after awhile realized the above and once, in a moment of candor, spouted off to the "leader": "So when we do finally cut our first album, you'll probably want to drive the truck to the record store!" Back to your mixes: If you are just getting started, use what you have and make it a point to take your mixes to other systems; your friend's homes, high end stereo stores, get dance clubs to spin your mixes (even if it's before or after hours) maybe even hire some time at a local studio to both listen to your mixes but also to audition the studio and listen to their best mixes. If your mixes are exactly what you want, keep it up...if not, what's the problem? One tip that might help translation is using a reference track. A reference track is a professional mix in the same genre and has similar instrumentation as your mix that you would like to emulate it's sound, dynamics and feel. As you mix, check your reference mix (for ease of use, just record it on a stereo track in your DAW). Refer to it as you mix for relative levels of various instruments/voices, EQ, FX etc. Listen to hear how your mixes translate in different rooms and systems.
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Post by chelonian on Dec 2, 2020 3:00:05 GMT
I don't disagree with Pasim but I will say that we are not all necessarily at "the same stage of the game" OR we may not even have the same level of "perfection" as a FINAL GOAL! Having said that, I would encourage chelonian (or anyone else getting started) to start mixing with what is available Right Now! ... with what ever you have. Just do it! Thank you, Rock (and Pasim). It probably will be a slow process of starting kind of dinky and then seeing what I'm willing to buy/make and how much that will cost in terms of money, time, and effort. Considering a fair bit of my music so far was recorded with a 2000-era Toshiba with 128 MB of RAM (!), there's nowhere to go but up. ;D Some of it is just that if I'm for now relegated to a 10x10x7.5 room, it seems not worth it to buy studio monitors for mixing as it's going to be bounce city or will require Herculean bass trapping. Maybe my next domicile I will try to arrange for a larger room for my music (I can dream, right?). Also, enjoyed your stories of early days, Rock.
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Post by Hexspa on Dec 2, 2020 5:25:47 GMT
You're in for a challenge, for sure. However, like rock said, use what you have. Even if your bass is skewed, you can still set up a reflection-free zone with 4-8" rigid panels and get a pair of mixcubes that roll off around 90Hz. That won't fix your bass but at least you can focus on the frequencies that you can control. I feel like you can get reasonable sub-bass levels for mixing with meters and the right headphones anyway.
Part of the reason you don't hear flutter echo could be due to masking. In other words, you have so much reflectiveness, it's covering up the discrete echoes. This is related to how Chris Lord-Alge sends delays into reverbs to make them less obvious.
I see your logic about headphones sounding good on the playback so why not the creation. Like pasim said, I find headphone mixing severely overrated. Yes, you have Slate and others promising you the moon but who stands to profit? Follow the money.
Most of us start with nothing. Start moving forward and build as you go. Maybe you can have x y and z tomorrow but use a b and c today.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 8:32:01 GMT
Yes, you wont hear flutter if you have all six surfaces reflective. There can be flutter (and will be) in larger rooms too. For example if you have long room say, 30-50ft long, and you treat all the walls, except back and front wall, you will have flutter between those surfaces. This is why you hear flutter in outside, between houses.. Distances might be quite long. Hexspa About sub-bass, headphones is NOT the tool for sub-bass. Checking, as another REFERENCE, bass above 60-75hz is great on headphones. I started with some PC speaker 2.1 system in my bedroom. Around 10ft x 10ft.. But the recording was done in a larger space, still not big. Yeah, the results were horrible.
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Post by Hexspa on Dec 3, 2020 15:52:34 GMT
Ya, apartment life sucks for audio. I have my sub disconnected, currently. Partially due to the limited I/O of Babyface but also because these 5" monitors are only down 3dB at 60Hz.
I dream of mastering the sub range and was hoping to add a tactile transducer at some point. Really, I'll probably end up in a house before then - hopefully!
In no way am I advocating using headphones as a serious decision-making tool for mixing. They are great for editing, though, and all the usual suspects like tracking and working when you want isolation in general.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2020 16:19:53 GMT
Hexspa Yeah headphones are phenomenal for checking reverb tails and other subtle details and noises, such as clicks and pops. For tracking, you usually need headphones, at least for vocals and drums.
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