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Post by newtothis on Oct 3, 2021 20:57:33 GMT
Hi Everyone,
This isn't an acoustics question per se and if it should go into the other forum, please let me know.
If you have experience with this, I would greatly appreciate your help.
I have a room in a single family home that I want to turn into a recording room (as opposed to the adjacent mixing room) and be able to get loud in there without my neighbors being bothered. This room is drywalled. My question is this: In order to get a good level of soundproofing in the room, do I need to remove the existing drywall or can I just go over it with a new frame?
To be more specific, my intention was to soundproof this room to the fullest degree I can, which would involve mazes for the floor vents and single air intake, a "floating" floor, putty covers for all electrical and for the walls and ceiling: insulation between studs, vapor barrier, mass loaded vinyl, hat channel and two layers of drywall with G-Glue in between. If I reframed the room, I would just screw the new frame into the existing frame through the existing drywall. I don't want to leave an air gap.
I do understand that reframing inside the room will cut down on the available space more than taking off the existing drywall and using the existing frame as a starting point. I'm not worried about that as it's a big room with a high ceiling. I'm more concerned with whether doing so will create an opportunity for moisture, unintended pressurization or other issues I can't foresee. The reason I ask is because it will be a job either way, but having to remove and haul out all that drywall from a large 2nd floor room would be a major PITA. While the old adage that it is easier to destroy than build is true, when it comes to drywall, adding is a lot less messy than removing.
So, again, if you have any experience in this area and can provide some guidance, I'd really appreciate your advice.
Thanks,
NewToThis
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Post by rock on Oct 5, 2021 2:59:28 GMT
As you know already, "soundproofing" is a highly specific science and one "false move" can easily reduce your sound attenuation significantly. On this forum, we mostly focus on room treatment as opposed to room to room sound isolation or attenuation so this is not the best resource for your question. One expert I can suggest and maybe you know is Rod Gervais but I'm sure there are others. If you don't, you can look for him on Gear Slutz. From what I have learned from Rod's book to try to answer you question "In order to get a good level of soundproofing in the room, do I need to remove the existing drywall or can I just go over it with a new frame?"... ...You want a wall/ceiling/floor with THREE and only THREE sections 1-MASS, 2-AIR (or insulation) and 3-MASS, in that order. Your mass layers can be composed of 2 or 3 (or more?) laminations of dry wall or other massive material but in the end will be one MASS unit on each side of an AIR or insulation center. You also need the inner MASS wall/ceiling/floor isolated from the outer MASS wall/ceiling/floor. In your case, it sounds like you have a standard stud wall with drywall on each side. You're best with two stud walls with Drywall layers on the outside of each and only air (insulation) in between. If you're not considering flanking and isolation of walls, ceilings and floors, you need to look into understanding how to achieve that level of construction. NOW, if you just want to leave the old dry wall in place and work from there inward without the trouble and mess of removing it all, you might still be OK but you will want to consult with an expert or at least start by reading Rod's book www.amazon.com/Home-Recording-Studio-Build-Like/dp/143545717X |
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Post by newtothis on Oct 5, 2021 3:47:06 GMT
Thanks very much and thanks for the book recommendation. It's on order.
I would like to do a "room within a room" with an air gap between the existing drywall and new frame. My only concern aside from any pressurization issues of bringing in the air vents and return into the inner room and leaving the gap with dead air is whether the ceiling would be stable enough. I guess I could support it with some vertical beams and probably not affect acoustics all that much if at all.
When the book arrives, I'll see if it sheds any light. Thanks again, Rock.
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Post by rock on Oct 5, 2021 13:40:46 GMT
One concept for the room in a room is both structures to be isolated at all points. Any rigid connection will "short circuit" vibrations from inside to outside and negate attenuation.
If you have ductwork connecting between, you must use something that will not transmit vibrations...a section of flexible duct might be used.
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Post by newtothis on Oct 5, 2021 16:02:23 GMT
There are a lot of aspects to this, including the fact that I'm trying to use 80% of the existing room's space and thus construction won't be easy, that give me pause...but none more than the HVAC. I never considered flexible duct but I think you're right, a section of it moving from the existing walls to the interior frame, perhaps surrounded by spray foam behind the drywall at the point of entry, would be a better isolated mechanical connection point.
But maybe I'm overshooting here. I would prefer to have a bigger soundproofed room but issues like air movement have me wondering if I might be better off just building a drum/amp enclosure and using a "vocalbooth" style air system that can be turned on when the door is closed. This is a pretty good sized room that follows my roof line. It's about 15 x 26 with a 13 foot ceiling on one side that slopes to an 8.5 foot ceiling on the other. If I do the full "room within a room", I would use 80% of it and have a vent in the exterior room door to get some air flow into the gap space. But if I just do a booth, I can avoid the HVAC entirely. I'd just be much more limited on space within that booth. But, I could still record sound outside the booth (vocals, keys, etc) and just use the booth for cranking up amps, drums and other sounds that would be loud enough to hear outside.
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Post by rock on Oct 6, 2021 3:46:34 GMT
You are correct in that this is a big undertaking. Whatever you choose to do for your desired results, you need a solid comprehensive plan and you need to follow through and not cut corners mid-way through the project, which will almost certainly compromise your intended goal.
Obviously, the biggest room you can afford to build will be the most flexible for future projects. If you have a fully isolated big room, you can always sub-divide with additional solid construction (Drum booth etc.) or even just use gobos.
There's an old adage: "If you want the best (or better) but buy something inferior, you'll always remember (or regret) what you did not choose BUT... If you buy what you really wanted, in time you'll probably forget how much extra you had to pay but still be happy with your choice.
Back to your original question about removing drywall or keeping in place:
This may well be a big project, much larger than your drywall removal. I suggest formulating two or three comprehensive plans estimating costs, performance (isolation/attenuation estimates) and functionality (room size etc.). This will give you a much better idea of what you're getting into. Start with doing as much as you can yourself but along the way, don't hesitate to look into hiring a consultant. Planning is everything!
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Post by Hexspa on Oct 6, 2021 9:27:19 GMT
Like Sagi from TechGearTalk says:
"Buy it nice or buy it twice."
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Post by newtothis on Oct 6, 2021 19:26:31 GMT
Thanks Rock and Hexspa. I agree wholeheartedly and definitely won't cheap out on whatever I build.
I think via pondering your questions and suggestions (Rock), the reality of the situation is sort of hitting home. If I try to build with a 1" or 2" air gap and take up most of the room, I'll be biting off more than I can chew. First, it would involve the use of drywall backup clips to get the top facing ceiling drywall screwed down properly without losing any more ceiling height than necessary, which is a less than ideal method of construction. I'd also have to deal with the HVAC, which is major way for noise to enter and exit the room. There are solutions for this but it mostly involves restricting airflow, so the room might get hot in the summer or stay cold in the winter.
If I use a little over half the room, alternately, I can avoid a lot of these issues and still have a decent sized "booth", which I can regulate temperature in via a standalone air exchange unit. I could build the topside of the ceiling on the floor and frame out three sides, then hoist/lift it into place. I could avoid all air and return ducts entirely. Then, in terms of access points, I only have to worry about the enclosure door, a decent sized enclosure window, electric and mic/line connections. And of course, with a smaller enclosure I can mechanically isolation between the bottom of the enclosure floor and the room floor and still float the interior enclosure floor.
It just seems a lot more feasible and I would still have a "room within a room" capable of standing on its own without have to tear out or change anything major in the rest of the room. So to that end, I will formulate a few plans and cost them out as you suggested to see what kind of size I can realistically do while avoiding parallel walls and using the best insulation, drywall, components, etc. I can afford.
Thanks again for everything!
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