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Post by rock on Dec 31, 2021 20:46:18 GMT
I don't know how much 1/4" drywall on RC will absorb LF. My guess is that it may at least also reflect a fair amount of mid bass and higher up back into the room if it even absorbs much low bass at all. It could work the way you expect but panel absorbers are tricky to tune and you might need to experiment and make test measurements, take is apart and do it again a few times until you get it right.
However 8" thick mineral wool (Roxul etc.) will make a great broadband absorber if you leave it exposed to the room. Of course you will want to cover it for cosmetic reasons and for this you could use any acoustically transparent material just like the absorber panels we talk about all the time on this forum.
Now, if in your case you don't want to absorb mid or highs, covering the mineral wool with foil, thin plastic sheeting or kraft paper will enhance the LF absorption while reflecting some mids and highs back into the room...exactly like the bass traps we talk about all the time here.
Bass traps are most effective in corners (you already know this because you've read all the stickies by now, right?) because LF tends to accumulate there. So if LF control is a priority for, you can frame across the corners and install mineral wool there too before you cover with plastic and decorative cloth.
What I do know is that that last I heard, Ethan recommends porous absorbers over resonant panels even though he has build them in the past as you can see from his "Build a Better Bass Trap" article.
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Post by rock on Dec 30, 2021 4:59:18 GMT
I took another look at your ceiling lights picture. If you would like to add a cloud, you should be able to install a panel or two to fit between the light hanging cables. The primary reason for a cloud is for an RFZ. The placement for such a could is centered between your speakers and listening position. If your speakers are fairly close like yours seem to be, you only need one centered between the speakers and your LP. If speakers are farther apart, you may need one cloud for each side. A third option is one large one covering the entire area above the speakers and LP and a fourth option can be several smaller clouds. You can leave a space 2" to 4" between clouds. If you build frameless clouds, the edges will absorb too and sound that goes through the gap will bounce off the ceiling and get absorbed on the way back and it will only be a small fraction of the entire wave anyway.
The other reason for cloud absorbers is for LF control of the floor ceiling modes. If you use 4" thick material and hang 4" from the ceiling it will be fairly effective at LF. Thicker is better. For LF control, you can cover as much of the ceiling as you want or are able to.
To make frameless panels, I used "Hardware Cloth" (it's like a heavy wire screen) with 1/2" squares. It's placed on the bottom of the mineral wool or Rigid FG and the whole panel is wrapped and attached with cosmetic covering cloth. To suspend, use stiff wire. Bend a hook on one end and skewer the panel from the bottom so the hook catches the hardware cloth. Use 4 wires per panel spaced to equally support the hanging panel at the 1/4 and 3/4 spots in both the length and width. Fasten to hooks or rods on the ceiling.
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Post by rock on Dec 28, 2021 4:33:50 GMT
Hi ezequielcd,
First, I aways wonder if a new member has read all Ethan's materials including the "Stickies" at the top of the forum. If you have not, please read them and follow the links, but in the meantime, I'll continue...
To treat small room acoustics like yours and most everyone else's, the answer generally is...(drum roll please)... absorption. As much as possible is usually less than is really needed. In your illustration, your corner bass traps are WAY too small and your RFZ (side) panels look too thin and they are not even the same thickness. A rectangular room has 12 corners and they are all candidates for bass traps. Floor/wall corners are usually not possible (due to limiting floor space) but you still have 8 others.
Wherever you place a panel, consider at least 4" thickness, it will help (if even marginally) with LF control. Spacing off the wall the distance equal to thickness or the panel is even better for LF but not always possible (it's up to you). I could go on but please ask more questions after you read and digest Ethan's material. Thanks
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Post by rock on Dec 27, 2021 17:20:13 GMT
As you noticed, you can change room acoustics with any change to the room. If you ever walked into an empty room with bare walls ceiling and floor, it's pretty "echoey". As you put pictures on the wall it gets less echoey and if you put big over stuffed sofas and rugs on the floor it gets even less. This should be obvious to all but the most casual observer. If that's good enough for you, you don't need to make a science project out of it.
For music recording and playback, we can get kinda geeky and nurdy about it but you can probably put just about anything on your walls and floor to try to tame flutter echoes etc. If I wanted to treat a room for flutter echoes, I would use porous absorbers instead of diffusors. Porous absorbers (rigid fiberglass or mineral wool cosmetically covered with breathable fabric) 1" to 2" thick placed at ear level alternating so opposing walls have a bare spot.
Diffusors are great, but not just any shaped reflective surface is a diffusor. But any shape (other than flat) will obviously bounce sound around in different directions and help to reduce flutter echoes.
In the end, if using small amounts (or any amount) of pyramid shapes seems to you to improve your room acoustics, I see no reason you can't do that.
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Post by rock on Dec 27, 2021 4:31:54 GMT
Hi Miichiel, those are some very nice looking designs but probably not very good for diffusion or any other kind of acoustic treatment. First thing you should do is read the stickies but in general for acoustic treatment, you need to cover a significant percentage of your room surface; a few square feet of even the "right kind" of treatment will do next to nothing.
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Post by rock on Dec 10, 2021 5:45:44 GMT
A brown-out is a sag or reduction in voltage from the normal power line voltage. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownout_(electricity)If you have an AC voltmeter you can monitor the line voltage and read the exact voltage at any time. Most electrical devices will operate over a range of voltages and not be adversely affected by minor sags and surges, extremes beyond where you might have problems might be below 90VAC or over 130VAC (in the US). Some fluctuation is normal but it's obviously better if it's constantly the same or at least close. Noises, sags and surges can be caused by other appliances or devices in the building so finding out the source of the disturbance will help. Poor or incorrect grounding and installation of "house" wiring might cause certain problems too, especially when other appliances are running.
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Post by rock on Dec 9, 2021 23:31:12 GMT
A UPS is great if your problem is power outages and brown-outs but if noise is the problem, you probably should try to identify the source. Depending on exactly what the problem is, a constant voltage transformer might be the answer if basic line noise supressors don't do the trick. www.grainger.com/product/5EU14?gucid=N:N:FPL:Free:GGL:CSM-1946:tew63h3:20501231One thing about these is that they work best at or near their wattage rating, so you need to add up all the devices you are running before you buy. If you do go this route, I recommend you contact Sola and talk to a sales engineer. Also, they do hum enough that you might not want it in your studio room so locate it in an equipment closet etc. Again, if you go this route, talk with Sola. BTW, any device that gives you clean power should not cause your gear to distort.
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Post by rock on Nov 23, 2021 14:22:52 GMT
I suggest you re-read the "stickies" at the top of the forum but here's some help. 1.) realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm2.) I actually could not find any thing about windows in the stickies but here's what I remember: Treat windows like you would regular walls. If you need an absorber there, hang one in front of it or put one on a stand in front of it so if you want to look out of it, you can move the absorber. 3.) Below is from ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html you need to scroll down and you can see a picture of absorbers mounted over the peak. You'll remember it from the first time you read it when you see it. "A peaked ceiling is better than a flat ceiling because it avoids the echoes and ringing that occur when the ceiling is parallel to the floor. But a peak creates a focusing effect, much like a parabolic dish, which is less than ideal. For this reason it's a good idea to place absorption or diffusion under the peaked portion, as shown in the photo below. MiniTraps on the ceiling These MiniTraps (commercial acoustic panels) were installed under the peaked ceiling in the author's home recording studio to avoid focusing sound in the room to the area under the peak. Top One somewhat controversial aspect of control room design is soffit mounting the main loudspeakers. Most home studio owners simply put their speakers on stands, or sit them on the mixing desk, and leave it at that. But many pro studios prefer to install the speakers into the wall so the front surface of the speaker cabinet is flush with the wall. There are sound scientific reasons to use soffit mounting, yet some engineers say it's not necessary or that it gives poorer results. Those in favor of soffit mounting point out that it reduces reflections called Speaker Boundary Interference, or SBIR, that cause peaks and dips in the low frequency response. If a loudspeaker is out in the room away from the wall, low frequencies from the rear of the cabinet will bounce off the wall behind it and eventually collide with the direct sound coming from the front of the speaker. (Even though it may not seem obvious, very low frequencies do in fact leave a speaker cabinet in all directions.) Proponents also claim that soffit mounting improves stereo imaging by reducing mid and high frequency reflections. I happen to side with those in favor of soffit mounting, yet I also respect the opinions of those who disagree. One thing nobody will dispute is that soffit mounting requires a lot more effort! If you do use soffit mounting, please understand that the speakers must be built into the real wall. You can't just apply a lightweight facade around the front of the speaker cabinet and expect the same results." Also see Hexspa's you tubes on setting up a room.
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Post by rock on Nov 7, 2021 22:31:58 GMT
1.) Great that you are taking notes on other threads. Most everyone here has the same problem: They have a "small room" that they want to improve the acoustics for listening or recording. (and by "small room" we generally mean a room in a home. Medium would be a hotel meeting room. Large would be an auditorium.) The answer for everyone with a "small room" is ...absorption. That's it. So eaves dropping in on other threads will often give you some answers for your own situation too. 2.) Yes, in other words: Cover your corner and ceiling with absorption. 3.) RFZ panels are absorbers (porous absorbers), what makes them RFZ panels is where you put them. They do exactly the same thing as any other broadband absorber (porous absorber) with the exception that a thicker ones will be more effective at low freqs than a thinner ones. And a bass trap porous absorber will have a thin membrane to further enhance LF performance while reflecting some mids and highs. They are all absorbers and all small rooms need them to improve acoustics by getting rid of reflections which create problems. 4.) : Guilford of Maine www.guilfordofmaine.com/acoustic They make very nice fabric for acoustics and I believe it's fire retardant where the LS in not. 5.) The Armstrong tiles will be more reflective at mids and highs than fabric which is acoustically transparent. The thick fiberglass you install in the ceiling will effectively be open acoustically to the room allowing maximum efficacy. I'm pretty sure all the above has been spelled out in one way or another on this forum and the internet at large... but here it is once again.
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Post by rock on Nov 7, 2021 14:07:04 GMT
Hexspa is totally correct: It does not have to be complicated, keep it simple. Yeah, you first need to your electronics working correctly (without the echo). Thanks for the photos. You can put thick fluffy insulation in the ceiling cavity. You can put the old panels back but it's better if you can replace them with fabric or a screen or something acoustically transparent. If you want cheap, use the economy landscape fabric I posted a link for in a post last week. (You are checking the other posts on this forum, aren't you?) For the walls, put insulation between the studs, and staple fabric over it, if it's thicker than the studs (most likely) just let the fabric bulge over the insulation. Don't worry about covering up your walls (with drywall or paneling or something,) it won't do much for outside sound and might make the inside sound worse. If anything, use insulation (and fabric). Like Hexspa say's, you really only need to treat and use a corner. I say, if some is good, more is better but what ever you do figure out your equipment and start recording and forget about your yard:)
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Post by rock on Nov 5, 2021 17:32:08 GMT
I'm going to pass along some 2nd (or 3rd) hand info on diffusors so take this with a grain of salt IIRC, the 3 to 4 foot range is on the side of being a little to close for diffusors, and for behind you, I believe 1D diffusors are either more applicable or more commonly used or both. The 2D seem to be better for ceiling...but see my opening line. Having said that, depending on other details about your listening room, you might be better off with absorption behind you. If your bookshelf is deep enough, you might try to fit some 4" thick mineral wool or rigid fiberglass in the back of your shelves and still have room for books and stuff in the front. BTW, I have used black economy landscape fabric as a covering for my absorbers. This is very thin. It keeps the loose fibers in but lets the air pass right through. www.menards.com/main/building-materials/landscaping-materials/landscaping-fabric/yardworks-reg-3-x-50-economy-landscape-fabric/00001/p-1444427384331-c-13236.htm?tid=-8515224090698823307&ipos=7
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Post by rock on Oct 30, 2021 14:14:32 GMT
Yes, the primary purpose of the RFZ absorber is the mid/high reflections so 2" is fine. As you apparently know, the reason to use thicker and/or space the panel a distance equal the it's thickness off the wall is to allow the panel to extend to lower freq.
So the recommendation for the latter is that while you're taking the time to build and install RFZ panels, why not invest a little more time and $ and get the bonus of more LF absorption...because all small rooms can use as much of that as possible.
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Post by rock on Oct 29, 2021 19:47:18 GMT
Actually I heard of one guy who does national political commercial voiceovers in his clothes closet. So yeah, you can use almost any space. As I mentioned before, if you are closer to the mic than the walls, you'll get less "room sound" which is typically "boxy" sounding and undesirable. A larger room allows you to be farther from walls and tend to have less of a boxy sound. A treated room will have less reflections; i.e. deader.
Have you done any tests yet? How do they sound? Maybe you can just sick a mic in the room hit record and start talking but you'll never know if you don't try it.
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Post by rock on Oct 28, 2021 13:33:18 GMT
Regarding the shelves: I don't think shelves on the walls should be a problem. Though shelves loaded with books and stuff are not diffusors that you might see in some studios, they can help to reduce flutter echoes. (Actually, anything you put on the wall will do something to reduce flutter echoes...have you ever removed pictures from a room before painting?) The only problem is that you will loose the wall space for RFZ panels. That's easy to get around by using moveable panels as shown above. You might choose to make them 4' wide instead of my 2' wide ones. The way I built mine, they nest together for storage as the "feet" go under the one in front if you stagger them slightly.
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Post by rock on Oct 28, 2021 4:46:54 GMT
The glaring problem will be "Sound issues:" If you need to isolate any, some or all of those unwanted sound sources, it is no mean feat and will take much more than I have time for tonight and will almost certainly put the kaibosh on a quick and/or cheap solution. I suggest you test with what you have right now and if the noise on your recordings is electronically un-filterable and unacceptable, you may need to find an alternate site or dig in for an expensive and long haul construction project. Please read this book: www.amazon.com/Home-Recording-Studio-Build-Like/dp/143545717X
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