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Post by pingpangpong on Sept 7, 2018 15:17:33 GMT
Just looking at some of ethans youtube videos and noticed that ethans pannels have a series of slats cut out on the sides, like a grill?...what are these doing in relation to the sound?...and will i need to do the same?...im using 18mm MDF....and considering adding an additional 1 or 2 more mdf pieces inside my frames to help with rigidity and ease of filling, if these additional pieces interfered with the sound, would i need to make openings of some kind in these also, or leave them out altogether?
I know these frames im going to build seam monstrously heavy, so do have my eyes open for something more lightweight, but so far nothing that would be an easy job to construct........
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ths61
New Member
Posts: 22
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Post by ths61 on Sept 7, 2018 20:24:52 GMT
Just looking at some of ethans youtube videos and noticed that ethans pannels have a series of slats cut out on the sides, like a grill?...what are these doing in relation to the sound?...and will i need to do the same?...im using 18mm MDF....and considering adding an additional 1 or 2 more mdf pieces inside my frames to help with rigidity and ease of filling, if these additional pieces interfered with the sound, would i need to make openings of some kind in these also, or leave them out altogether? I know these frames im going to build seam monstrously heavy, so do have my eyes open for something more lightweight, but so far nothing that would be an easy job to construct........ The slats on the side of the broadband traps are to expose more usable absorption surface area. It is an optimization.
If you have a 6" deep panel that is 24" wide and expose those 6" sides, you have 50% more exposed absorption surface area (e.g. 2x6" = 12" = 24"/2 = 50%).
DIYers expose portions of the sides in a variety of ways.
HTH
This one is 100% exposed, but is also not protected from crushing.
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Post by pingpangpong on Sept 7, 2018 20:52:49 GMT
Cheers 61, thats perfect, thats going to almost half the weight also.......👍
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Post by Hexspa on Sept 8, 2018 2:13:51 GMT
I know these frames im going to build seam monstrously heavy, so do have my eyes open for something more lightweight, but so far nothing that would be an easy job to construct........ I use metal drywall corner bead, though currently I suggest using the vinyl variant. Using an 1/8" hole punch and rivets, you get a lightweight, strong frame which is easy to construct, hang, and exposes a lot of the material. Some argue its not as beautiful as hardwood but it remains a legitimate option. The arrangement of these panels is now slightly different: some of the panels you're looking at are 'pushed in' as to be angled and the cloud is about 1x or less gap. This gave me better results at listening position. What you're looking at is my recording zone into which I perform when tracking.
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Post by pingpangpong on Sept 8, 2018 2:55:41 GMT
Yeah hexspa i hear ya, if i was using the ridged fibreglass i would go for that, but with this polyester ive not come up with a design for really holding it all in place yet,i maybe stuck for getting the rolls, and left with only bags of it like stuffing, so going ahead with the frames, then hoping as i get closer i will have the final idea, started thinking about making the fronts similar to a removable hifi type speak fronts, and then have two separate materials, one holding the polyester in place and the other being the finished front....a lot more work but now ive started and seen those pictures, im sold on the pretty pictures!....and have the machines and tools to make this quite a fast build when i have my final idea sorted.......
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Post by pingpangpong on Sept 17, 2018 0:52:56 GMT
Hello all, just a quickie, in Ethan's youtube video m.youtube.com/watch?v=sPfF_thqS84 there are many room kits talked about, from the basic to the more complex, but in Ethans home theatre tour it doesn't look like he has much in the way of defusers, but references people saying its the best room they have ever been in, so If the room sounds great without all the extra diffusers would it be advised that i didnt go crazy building everthing, i do really want the best room possible for mixing my projects as i think this has been the missing link to me not ever being happy with the mixing, im happy with the tracks but havent got many out of the muddy zone....... So my questions are... 1. Do i need to go to all the trouble of making defusers ( basically making a copy of the last room kit in Ethans youtube video ) 2. If i just started with the super base traps in all my corners and absorbers at all the reflection points to get me started then started to take readings Of the room and add more as i go, is this the best place to start? 3. And if i did build defusers, can i just make my slats randomly....or do i have to tune each one, and am i waisting my time trying to build defusers Without proper knowledge....and if so....am i better to just deck out my entire room with absorbers with 16" gaps between them including the The entire ceiling and a rug covering 60% of the room in the center with exposed tiles around the edge of the room... I seam to have gotten slightly confused again with the whole process.....?🤔
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Post by Hexspa on Sept 17, 2018 4:15:00 GMT
Ok, before I get overwhelmed, regarding Ethan's Home Theater video, as of 2015 he's showing four 4x2' diffusers and what looks like a diffusion surface wrapped around a pedestal holding the puppet. For those of you who haven't seen it, you can watch here (time linked to 1:03) and I recommend you do watch it because that last sentence makes it sound like I'm setting the stage for a murder novel.
Now let me edit in my response your second point.
1. Nobody needs diffusers so it depends on how you define it. The purpose of diffusers is to optimize reflections whereas absorbers transduce received sound into heat. The question then becomes: do you want a warm room or a reflective one? Assuming you have access to, and can afford the wares from, thenorthface.com you can focus on the question of liveness. What does it do? Having never used it, but only read about its applications and principles and been in naturally diffuse spaces, I tell you that it's a relevant matter.
Essentially, diffusers are used to return temporally and spatially, time- and space-, off set reflections back into the room. These, in turn, transform undesirable specular, flat-wave, reflections to enlarge the aurally-perceived size of the room and every sound source in it, create an extended and more even decay not possible with absorption, make the room seem 'more natural' to be in since many people are averse to a so-called 'dead' room, and impress everybody who doesn't have them. Tl;Dr: the only way to know whether you like diffusion is to experience it. As far as mixing goes, it makes your sound sources, speakers, and hence the sound stage, larger. It does so at the cost of accuracy when compared to an anechoic chamber or anything along the deader-end of that spectrum. Even so, you're probably worse off by leaving your walls bare depending on your usage of the room. In sum, maybe you should build diffusion and maybe you shouldn't; it depends on your desires.
2. When you say 'super base' it makes me think of a Fallout vault that plays Nicki Minaj all day. Nonetheless, I take you to mean 'super chunks' which are the wedge-shaped absorbers that are typically cut diagonally from a larger absorber. To directly answer your question: super chunks plus RFZ panels would put you ahead of where I started and I was pretty content with my initial setup. You should, however, also measure your room prior to adding any treatment as to obtain a baseline, 'super base line' as it were, measurement.
Don't got no absorbers tho.
3.1 You may make your reflection devices however you want. You can not, in contrast, make diffusers randomly. If you were to do so, you end up with what's known as a 'random diffuser' which may be a bit of an oxymoron, depending on how strictly you define diffusion. You can see what I consider to be an example of random diffusion on the NPR Tiny Desk stage. There's one main problem with this approach and that is the fact that your diffusers will be, well, random. Randomness is inherently unpredictable. Were you to optimize your approach at all then it wouldn't be random any longer. Ask yourself whether you want a random influence in your room or do you want a predictable result. Being random, you may make your problems worse by, for instance, introducing resonances or even directing more strong reflections back at you. In the end, and since you claim to have access to fabrication machines, I recommend that you learn a little about diffusers. Many free tools and resources are available and, with a little care, you can make genuine diffusers that'll give you perhaps a lifetime of enjoyment.
3.2 I, like you may be, was also overzealous about enormous air gaps. "You mean you can technically absorb some of a 42Hz standing wave with just a 4" panel? Sure, I'll put my absorption in the center of my room to obtain a 3-foot air gap - no problem!" In reality, your air gap may perform better if it's just 1x your absorber's thickness. Personally, I tried 4x gaps with my ceiling panels and the result was substantially worse than a narrower one.
3.3 Carpet and exposed flooring are a minor concern. Given the thinness of carpet and the existence of a proper RFZ zone, I'm suggesting that you worry about the big dogs which are bass and early reflection optimization.
Most of us get overwhelmed and confused when studying this stuff. The problem is that this isn't really a productive cerebral affair. Most people don't become technical experts on the optimal game play of DOTA 2 without picking up a controller. I already wrote the post Uber-Simple Acoustics for this very mistake. Decide on a budget, keep it simple, and follow a proven method targeted at beginners.
Thanks.
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Post by pingpangpong on Sept 17, 2018 7:58:33 GMT
Hexspa to the rescue!....yes i know what your saying, extremely clear and most welcome advice yet again, i think where im falling short is trying to get the messy work out the way, like drilling the holes in the block wall, as need them to hold the traps up as the weight, and messing with a material i can't easily hang on the wall first and test, also living in a building site and battling with dust everyday and have to gaffa tape up my doors to protect the equipment, so thats all been forcing me to try and compleat the job without having the freedom of slowly testing and make desitions about things i dont fully understand yet. So think im going to go ahead with the super chuncks and pannels at points of first reflection and go from there, ive not touched on the room analysts software at the moment, so thats next to try get my head around, sorry i have a habbit of making up words so ill take more effort next time!....so less of the super funky bass triangles haha! Thanks again....
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Post by rock on Sept 17, 2018 11:28:02 GMT
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Post by pingpangpong on Sept 17, 2018 14:41:13 GMT
Cheers for the info rock, im suffering a little sleep deprivation atm, but had a quick flash through that site, cant keep my eyes open to read...but looking forward to having a propper look.....👍
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Post by rock on Sept 17, 2018 21:34:58 GMT
I posted the link because you are interested in diffusors but I don't necessarily recommend building them...at least right away. All things considered, you're probably better off sticking with absorbers first. If you cover your rear wall with thick absorbers for LF, diffusors can be placed in front of them. Ethan's diffusor design incorporates LF absorption too.
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Post by pingpangpong on Sept 18, 2018 4:31:24 GMT
Yeah think your right, i really want to slowley hear a difference over a period of time, thats the only way to trust my own ears, but im not going further if it dosent benifit me, find the whole thing fascinating though, but as much as i love to build things think im going to slow down abit, think i might have possibly started a prosses of thought that could lead to building a diffuser alot more easily though....but so bizzy building and writing think i need to give it a miss till the right time.....
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Post by Hexspa on Sept 18, 2018 22:12:30 GMT
Your wall space will be waiting.
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Post by rock on Sept 19, 2018 0:21:30 GMT
If you come up with unique, easy or clever designs for QRDs please share. You should certainly see how Ethan builds his. I have not looked at the details in some time but I seem to remember he had some very good ideas. You need to look around his site, I'm not sure were I saw them so start on his diffusor page (dough!)
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Post by pingpangpong on Sept 19, 2018 7:10:28 GMT
Yeah i will surely share,.....im only talking about what ive looked at on that sight you sent me the link to, and only looking at depth and shapes atm, nothing scientific.....so be kind if i state the obvious!.....where my thoughts were leading to is, when i want a groove in a piece of sheet material i set the rise on the table saw to the given depth then can run down the entire lenth and then repeat the process again and again untill i have desired width of groove, so i started thinking I could do the same for a defuser, but 18mm MDF is too thin, and gluing many pieces togeather would be heavey, but maybe not for smaller defusers, but could get pretty heavy given the depth looks pretty deep on the ones i looked at, so started thinking what else could be used, so thought about polystyrene and kingspan/celetex, but its soft, so then thought of the epoxy resins suitable for those products, the same movie set designers use for props, then paint/spray or apply these best as possible, as you would be dealing with some delicate pieces untill you managed to harden it all off, so these are my thoughts more than anything, but with my rise and fall table saw i can just keep adjusting the blade to make the depths then harden off a softer/lighter sheet material, also touching on the idea of molds, heating plastics into a press, or vacuum if i had one!......so just playing with all these ideas really, all that wood work and glueing and clamping would do my head in, so seeing if i could find another way......the wood blocks would bore me also, so im talking about the slated defusers.....ive only just started to sort out my pannels, so maybe have better ideas as i get closer, or be told im barking up the wrong tree?..
Also wondering what gritty surface areas would be like, if adding anything to hardeners like what a course sandpaper surface area would be like rather than smooth, but this is only because I glanced at a paragraph mentioning aluminium was used for a defuser but made the sound too (something or other) i forgot, but it sounded negative.
Im only building the absorbers because of the polyester fiber resorses, but its all pushing me to think and find ways, hope its worth the effort!....next will be are my speakers good enough for my room!!...
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