tommy
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Post by tommy on Apr 9, 2021 18:46:19 GMT
My music room is 18’ x 12’ x 8’4”. To keep wife happy I plan on building two side wall panels of 4” OC703 at 4’ x 6’. Plan is to cover these with some sort of art or picture. Desk on front wall 56” wide and 40” deep with one or two 2’x4” 4” panels behind it. My Back at mixing desk approx 38% into room with 4x6 window at rear about 10’ behind. Two 2x4 4” portables to place in front of rear window. Two corner super chuck bass traps to ceiling at rear corners. Not able to place corner traps in the forward corners or at other wall ceiling junctures. Not able to do ceiling clouds. Vinyl floor - Sheetrock all round. I did not plan on testing with REW and despite Mr. Winer’s “how to” I am not sure how to use it anyway Questions 1. I know of three companies that do art on grill cloth - but very expensive: Acoustimac , woodshedstageart and bags of love. Do you know of any others? 2. Wife wants 31” dresser on side wall. Speakers will sit on desk on isolation stands at ear height approximately 36”. If I mount the 4x6 side wall panels beginning at 32” from floor will they be effective for reflection free zone? 3. Can I get away with 4x 6 panels that are only 2” instead of 4” for reflection free zone? I know I will lose some bass trapping but perhaps the two corner super chunks will compensate
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Post by Hexspa on Apr 9, 2021 19:26:35 GMT
Hi tommy, welcome.
I don't know of any companies that will do art on grill cloth. Maybe you can check out fiver to see if you can commission some. Somebody else might chime in.
The reflection 'points' are more like areas. The more area you can cover, the less reflections you'll get.
For side panels, and only for RFZ, 4" would be better since they'll be effective to 125Hz which is generally where stereo information becomes relevant. I'd argue that if your wife gets the dresser and you don't get ceiling panels, you should be able to make your side panels as thick as you want. Give and take!
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tommy
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Post by tommy on Apr 9, 2021 20:08:42 GMT
If I do 4” side panels how significant would it be to drop to 1” from the wall? That way I can build with 1x 6 at actually about 5.25 wide. Mounting a 4” panel 2” from the wall would probably annoy the wife
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Post by rock on Apr 10, 2021 15:06:45 GMT
For my 2 cents I'd add that for side reflection panels, as long as you're at it and can get away with it, thicker is better and spacing off the wall is better too. The reason is simply more LF performance. If you can only use 2" thick panels flush to the wall, that will work too but you loose out on the opportunity of greater absorption bandwidth.
The same goes for spacing off the wall (up to equal the material thickness). If you can only space 1" instead of 4", it's better than Zero. Your idea of building 1x6 frames and leaving a space at the rear is good. Also, cutting holes or slots in the frame will expose the sides of the absorbing material so as long as the covering material wraps around the sides, the holes will be invisible.
From a visual standpoint, some thin covering material can be somewhat transparent so painting the frames black (or a matching color) can help hide the light wood color. If you need to hide the color of the insulation, I have found using economy (the cheapest) landscape fabric good for muting the color bleed through of the insulation if you need it.
As for the 32" height off the floor: In a "perfect world" your RFZ panel would be centered on the line of sight reflection point using the "Mirror trick". It sounds like your panels will be a little on the high side but they should be effective.
Now that brings up the subject of elevations, your room height is 8'4" that's 100 inches, how convenient! So the 38% (or 62%) "rule" applies to height too. That means your optimum listening height would be 38" or 62". I have to say, with 8' (or thereabout) ceiling height, it really never works out for the best and we have to work with what we have. I think having a thick cloud helps to tame the floor to ceiling mode as well as the reflection, too bad you can't have one.
My ears sitting in my office are 45" off the floor so in my office, that's 47%, almost as bad as you can get...but if I had a 10' ceiling 38% happens to be 45.6" just about perfect! But in my "studio" I have a standing mix station with speakers centered at 59" high and a really high "drafting" chair that gets my ears up to 59" off the floor if I want to sit. In truth, the standing workstation was designed because I mainly use it with my full band and running back and forth setting up levels and either leaning over or pulling up a chair was really annoying so I "jacked-up" the whole workstation so I could stand but then I had to get a tall chair when I wanted to mix (that I need to use a step stool to climb onto it:( I do have a 4" cloud too.
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tommy
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Post by tommy on Apr 10, 2021 22:07:28 GMT
Thank you to all for input! Rock, I am 6’3” so I imagine my ears will be at 45” also. If I can find the right printing company and art for the walls, perhaps I can find a lower wider dresser to meet the need - it is supposed to be an occasional guest room. That will allow lower mounting of the panels. That may be 2’ above and 2’ below 45” - so with a 24” dresser I can get closer to mid—point.
Other comments have lead me to the search term “large format printing” for grill cloth/material wider/longer than 36” with multiple fruitful search results. We are using an interior designer for advice and I will publish pictures and vendors used when I get there
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Post by Hexspa on Apr 12, 2021 17:16:14 GMT
Make sure the paint isn't reflective.
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tommy
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Post by tommy on Apr 18, 2021 17:08:55 GMT
On my side wall reflection point panels. They will be 4’ x 6’. I have two available choices. I can either do 2” Panels mounted 2” off the wall, or I can do 4” panels mounted flush to the wall. Which choice is best?
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Post by rock on Apr 18, 2021 20:30:03 GMT
4" panels flush are better.
Not because flush is better but because 4" is thicker and will give you a wider bandwidth on the low end (one octave). If you spaced the 4" panel 4" off the wall, you'd get even more LF performance (one more octave).
In practice, the 2" spaced 2" off the wall is almost as good as 4" flush... but the 4" flush is better.
Also, as I mentioned before, don't forget cutting holes or slots in the frame will expose the sides of the absorbing material increasing the panel effectiveness. If the covering material wraps around the sides, the holes will be invisible.
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Post by Hexspa on Apr 19, 2021 7:08:00 GMT
Plus, with 4", you can gradually, imperceptibly, add a gap over time. At a rate of 1"/year, your acoustics will improve and no one will be the wiser.
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tommy
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Post by tommy on Apr 20, 2021 16:36:25 GMT
Hexpa, you rascal! Good suggestion. As it is evolving, the 6'x 4' x 4" panels will be mounted flush to the side walls and hopefully cover the first reflection points of both speakers on each side. They will be covered with art by Woodshed Stage Art (WoodshedStageArt.com). It is a dye process on what is essentially grill cloth and retains acoustic transparency. They build large panels for touring bands for their stages. About $200 for each 4x6, but I can pick the art or photograph. On one wall, the panel will be flanked by two bookshelves filled with books of random heights and depths to act as diffusers and to hide the depth of that panel. Underneath that panel will be a pull out bench to sit on to play guitar and also to help hide the depth of that panel. Parallel on the opposite wall will be a 24" high x 60" wide set of drawers for guests to keep the wife happy. For my corner bass traps 24 x 24 x 31 to the ceiling I am trying to match the grey wall paint to make them disappear. Two more 2x4x4" panels flush on the front wall behind the speakers. Speakers set as close to the front wall/panels to minimize SBIF. Speakers are Yamaha HS7's. Then 2 movable 2x4x4" panels to store in the closet and use as needed.
Does this plan sound like it will work?
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Post by Hexspa on Apr 21, 2021 1:07:35 GMT
Sounds good. I prefer pictures instead of text, however. $200 with art sounds like a good deal for a retail panel.
Bookshelves with books aren't diffusion, though they may scatter and absorb some. Acoustically, it'll be one of those things you have to measure. That's if it's a negotiable feature. If not then it's moot.
I don't say this to be pedantic - ok, yes I do - but diffusion is a higher order of controlled reflections. It's all in the spirit of maintaining a high standard. On a high note, I'm happy that you're moving forward and optimizing your space. We all can only work with what we have.
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Post by rock on Apr 21, 2021 17:46:19 GMT
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tommy
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Posts: 15
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Post by tommy on Apr 26, 2021 15:17:03 GMT
Maybe ceiling clouds with art from the most famous part of the Cistine Chapel would fly. But the problem with putting clouds at the mix/record position is that there is a ceiling fan directly overhead
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Post by rock on Apr 26, 2021 20:05:29 GMT
That's great. But for reflections, the cloud is not centered directly above the mix position but a little forward at the reflection points from the speakers (the mirror trick). But in reality, depending on the speaker distance and the size of the cloud, it may end up being over the mix position...at least to some degree.
Then there's the ceiling fan; great for moving the air and probably not a big deal when mixing but when I tune a piano in a room with a ceiling fan, I always make sure it's off. It's weird, but sometimes it can make individual notes warble a tiny bit sounding like when two notes are slightly out of tune. If you don't turn off the fan, it can drive you crazy:)
If you don't really use the fan much, they're usually pretty easy to take down. They can be fairly easy to relocate a few feet back too, especially if the joists run in the same direction that you're moving it.
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Post by Hexspa on Apr 27, 2021 9:55:34 GMT
they're usually pretty easy to take down. Was wondering this myself. I wonder if there are studies which show properties to be more desirable if they have a ceiling fan installed. Every time I look at a new room, I'm thinking, "I wonder if they'll mind if I take this off." Do I need to shut off power to do it? Could I YouTube it or should I call an electrician?
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